PigLick on 21/2/2007 at 07:09

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we need more of this golden malarcky!

Uncia on 21/2/2007 at 10:06

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I already have. :(
Because V was a better movie than even the original Matrix. There, I've said it.


Also, don't read any Philip K. Dick stories, most of them end by taking a reasonable ending and going "whoop! Have a clue that contradicts the events!". ;)

OnionBob on 22/2/2007 at 13:29

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Ha ha ha ha what. It's utter shit, Unciaa, I thought you were more discerning than that. Don't be blinded by the seductiveness of the disenfranchisement fantasy, I know (from experience) that it draws in the furries like flies to shit!!

V is even more disappointing than Equilibrium was. Two hours of disjointed pastiches of British culture (Benny Hill? What?) supposedly intended to illustrate some kind of confusing, pointless retread of 1984, complete with John Hurt in an eye-rollingly "clever" inversion of his role in the most recent film version of that novel. Which was shit too. If the action was even any good or stylish it would work, but the fight scenes are boring and there doesn't really ever seem to be anything at stake because all of the characters except V are complete toss. Purportedly the original comic was intended to make some point about Thatcherism, but the targets and thus the goalposts have been moved for the movie and it's not really clear who is being lampooned (the media? if that's the case, why blow up the houses of parliament rather than, say, the Daily Mail? the government? we don't really get to hear much about what the government really is or does).

The Matrix works, and works well, because the Wachowskis' putrid, anime-hardon juvenila was filtered through a unique and highly effective style package and a tight, economical script that let on just enough to fire the imagination, but not enough to steamroll it into submission with broad, boring clichés (which is what happened in the Matrix sequels). It tentatively raised semiological and philosophical points that weren't exactly Jean Baudrillard, but that were just deep enough to set it apart from other action movies (even if the sequels ruined this too by betraying how little the Wachowskis actually understood them, to the point where actually it turns out they're pretty much just namedropping). The movie's setting mapped cleanly onto a noir visual style that gave it cultural reference points in film history and yet allowed it to keep its own identity into the bargain. It was filled with graceful, memorable, innovative stunts and setpieces that got the balance right between cartoon and realistic violence. It is a huge amount of fun with a coherent, original, interesting storyline.

Remember all those great, classic scenes from the Matrix? The lobby gunfight, the first instance of bullet time, the limbo dancing to avoid the bullets? Scenes that have been copied and parodied to the point of exhaustion?

Now, remember all those great scenes from V for Vendetta? Yeah me neither.

Fuckin furries :mad:

fett on 22/2/2007 at 14:27

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Good post OB. I think it's universally agreed that the Matrix should have been left alone, which goes back to my main point. There wasn't necessarily a resolution to *everything* that was happening in Neo's world (real/matrix), but there was a satisfactory end to the movie itself. I didn't need to know HOW he was going to bring down the machine, I just knew he was capable of it, and the rest could remain unwritten.

Actually the Matrix is the perfect example of story resolution on several points:
1) When Neo beats the agents, we understand why it is so - because he has mentally transcended the illusion of reality proposed by the Matrix. This struggle is set-up early in the film and revisited many times throughout - it's clear what the obstacle and finish line looks like. And we get to cross it. Let us cross the fucking finish line - that's why we came in the first place.

2) There are many small plot threads that wind off in to the darkness, but none of them are essential to resolving the story of Neo. Because of traditional storytelling ethos hardwired into humans, we accept without much explanation that Neo, Luke Skywalker, and Frodo are the Messiah - that's good enough for us. But when you start trying to exposit shit like how their parents met, where the prophecy came from, and why they wear that particular shoe size, the story gets bogged down in tedious bullshit that the writer has no intention of resolving.

*) Lemony Snickett is the poster boy for this problem, the only difference being that he successfully fooled most people into thinking he actually knew where he was going for 12 books by magnifying these tedious details as if they were crucial to the plot, rather than using them as background color - like in the Matrix. Lemony - what the FUCK is in the damn sugar bowl???

3) The Matrix even managed to provide decent resolution for the minor characters in the film, such as Agent Smith, Morpheus, and the rest of the crew. I don't need to know what happened to them after the credits roll, but by god don't spend 30 minutes exploring everything about them, and then forget who they are at the end. I can count 9 (NINE!) important characters in the Snickett books that were either left drifting off to sea, trying to escape a burning building, poisoned and awaiting an antidote, etc. - and the reader never finds out what happened to them. It's inexcusable.


Oli G - I agree that pop entertainment isn't going wow me with it's storytelling prowess, but as I stated in my first thread, I think we should expect more bang for out buck in terms of plot. An ending should be a given - especially when you've dragged my ass through 15,000 pages of exposition (I'm looking at YOU ROBERT FUCKING JORDAN - YOU BLOATED FUCKWIT). :mad: :mad: :mad:

Tiamat on 22/2/2007 at 18:03

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I've always really liked the Wheel of Time series, but after the tenth book came out and more and more plot threads started appearing instead of closing I realized that his next (and last) book is going to have to be 1500 to 2000 pages to close just the important ones. Either the book will close them poorly or will close a few well and leave the rest wide open. He should have stopped the series at nine like he orginally... no, wait... secondly... errr.. thirdly planned.