qolelis on 5/7/2019 at 12:55
I am sort of in the same boat as you, Gray; I wasn't born with any particular talent for making music, but I still felt the need to try and make some anyway when I saw my chance. I did have a certain knack for computers, though, so going that route felt like the most viable option. I got into Reason when it first released and the main appeal with it for me was the modular synths approach (and still is). I am more of a technician than a musician, so Reason's approach felt like a nice fit for me. Often times what I make is not even music (in the traditional sense), but more like weird sound experiments put together by running cables hither and dither, that I like listening to myself. I would love to go physical (a wall of modular synths would be great), but I don't have the means for it, so Reason with its virtual rack is a good enough compromise. I went from Reason 1 to 3 and then stuck with 3 for a long time. This year, after upgrading my computer system, I went "fuck it" and upgraded to 10, which was a huge leap (and also actually helps with learning new things and keep me motivated).
I create a lot of crap, but there's enough less crap to continue (something about personal growth and yada yada). Still more crap than not, though, but I'm sort of taking the "thousand monkeys eventually recreating the works of Shakespeare" approach; with enough material, some of it must be good -- statistically speaking...
My main problem is that I'm often too impatient to sit down and learn properly, so I'm just going ahead anyway ("learn by doing" -- which is a fancy way of saying "learn by making crap" -- which is a fancy way of saying "make some crap"). A lot of the time I get distracted by my own, sometimes wild, explorations and experiments. This kind of works too, but it's certainly not ideal in any way, and -- unless I change -- it won't ever get me to a point where I can say that I actually know what I'm doing (which I don't). I fell out of it at one point and stopped completely for a long time. I could blame the "impostor syndrome", but I also know I will most likely never be a real musician no matter how hard I try.
___After my long hiatus I got into it again, with a newfound motivation (clichéd, I know, but I actually met my muse there for a while). Later I also went to (
https://norbergfestival.com/) Norbergfestival (in Sweden), which was an eye opener (seeing that more people like me actually existed). I still have a problem with feeling like an impostor, though, and connecting with like-minded people is hard, so, most of the time, I do whatever it is that I do in a vacuum (I would like to return to Norberg, but it's not happening at the moment).
I'm not the right person to give advice, but feel free to use my above rant as a cautionary tale. TL;DR: Find and connect with like-minded people (you might think you're unique and that they don't exist, but you're not and they most likely do). Learning things properly will help and will get you where you need to go faster.
Soundcloud is not the best for connecting with people; most are there to advertise their own creations (or the creations of their protégés), or try to sell their services (or spam you), but, for uploading and potentially sharing your music, it works and seems to still be widely used (I haven't followed similar platforms lately, though, so there might be better things out there). I have accounts on forums where people get together and share ideas/critique etc, but I don't remember their names now and haven't been active in a long while (I could try and dig it up again if you're interested).
Do you enjoy creating the things you create more than you hate it? Then continue doing it. For me, it's like an itch, a sometimes unscratchable itch, but I still need to scratch it.
scumble on 6/7/2019 at 09:32
Gray - I liked the 6/8 thing. It's arranged well - I also have the problem with getting a start on a track and not knowing where to go. The times where I did seem to figure out where to go I'm not sure how I managed it.
I've got the same issue with thinking about originality as well, but that's self-sabotaging - because I know I'll learn a lot from basically stealing other forms, but my mind says that's "too easy" even though I can probably come out with something as good as musicians that squeeze out a little success. Also maybe it's not quite that easy just to finish a simple house track.
It's perfectly fine just to make something to entertain yourself...
I can tell you which software I fail to use very much in general - often because I'm lacking the mental energy after everything else in my life lately.
I've had a version of Logic Pro for years but this isn't much help if you don't have a mac. I possibly bought an old piece of Pro Tools LE hardware because I wanted to play about with a moving fader controller without thinking that I didn't have anything to mix - probably an unhelpful distraction so also not a recommendation. Maybe it was worth wasting my time with it to realise how unimportant some hardware is when you are at a certain stage with musical endeavours.
Most recently I just decided to get an updated version of Reason, which I have used in some form since it was first released. Reason 10 now has everything you might need including the ability to record audio, so I think it's probably quite a bargain. You can also use VST plugins in it so it's possible to use other soft synths and effects without using rewire and another sequencer. You can get a 30 day trial and have a go with it when you feel you've gathered some motivation perhaps.
I've also got Native Instruments Komplete 8 - and I'm resisting upgrading because I don't want even more choices of things I probably won't manage to use. It already has Absynth, FM8, Reaktor, Kontakt, Guitar Rig, Battery and I don't use those much.
I kind of miss the limitations of Reason 1 because the problem these days is just overwhelm. Reason 10 on its own has a silly amount in it.
For a keyboard I use a Novation X-Station I've had for years - works well with reason as it's covered in knobs and it's easy to map synth controls.
But coming back to the original point, I think I'd also find it helpful to find some community for getting feedback and some ideas on how to finish stuff, but on the other hand I also wonder if it's just a case of trying to ignore thoughts of originality and just mimicking stuff you like. I want to do more transcribing as that's a good way of learning how music you admire works while improving ability to get stuff out of your head and into the sequencer.
Also I have a soundcloud page, where it bothers me I've got stuff I never finished that was posted a decade ago now fs.
(
https://soundcloud.com/scumble/tracks)
qolelis on 7/7/2019 at 12:15
Also, try not to compare yourself too much to others. A point of reference -- or something to strive towards -- can be useful, but if you think someone else's work is better, don't let that alone dissuade you. I'm pretty sure even performing artists pick and choose a lot, so what you're comparing yourself against is their absolute best efforts and the result of a long process (might even be that they once gave up on it, but picked it up again later). This would probably be where getting involved in a community comes in, talking to similarly situated people.
demagogue on 8/7/2019 at 05:44
For me, I connect making music with practice. I always want to be improving my technique and learning new forms. Maybe it helps that I pursue jazz. It's such a deep and rich well of forms, you could pursue it forever and still have things to learn and integrate. And the nice thing about jazz, since it's improv based, is that whatever you practice just automatically starts popping up in your improv, and really cool sounds just starts coming out of my playing that even I didn't know I could do.
But even aside from that side of it, I find practice therapeutic. Whatever drama and crap may be happening in real life, I always set aside time where I can just sit down at the keyboard and work on whatever's next in my queue, scales, vocabulary, different techniques. It's a merciful refuge a lot of times. I'd still be practicing even if I weren't doing it for the music.
But as an added bonus, my playing will sound better. One has to love muscle memory & musical-sense (I guess you'd call it; knowing where you are switching from a Dm to a G7). They just improve with practice, like your muscles just improve with weight lifting. I have a lot of ideas about how to keep up good practice sessions. I might post some if anyone's interested, since I think about it a lot, but it may also be pretty genre specific too and people have to figure out what works for them, which may be different than others.
Gray on 12/7/2019 at 22:35
Thank you all for participating in my delusion that I may one day become a musician. Quite a lot to reply to there. Let's start from the start, and work our way down.
Quote Posted by demagogue
Reason, Absynth, Band in a Box
I haven't really paid attention in the last few years, but Reason always seemed interesting to me, I just looked it up and it's currently $299, which sounds like a lot of money to waste for someone with no discernable talent, but then again probably less than I'd spend if I bought some actual hardware. Never heard of Absynth, but I'll have a look. I toyed around with an early version of Band in a Box years ago but didn't like it at the time, it's probably better now. I'm leaning towards Reason though, and not just because Propellerheads are Swedish but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a mildly contributing factor.
Quote Posted by demagogue
Sibelius
Curiously, I'm vaguely related to Jean Sibelius the composer. A friend of mine is using Sibelius the software to compose his symphony and swears by it, but it seems a bit out of my league. Yes, I have a friend who's actually writing a full on symphony, with all the bells and whistles. Except no actual bells nor whistles.
Quote Posted by demagogue
keyboards ... What do you really want?
Anything really synthetic sounding with lots of knobs, but you've swayed me somewhat towards Reason now, and I probably can't afford both. I don't need another thing that sounds like another thing. I'm not going to lug hardware around, I don't jam or perform, just sit in my little room and make noise.
Quote Posted by demagogue
Electric guitar
Yeah, I know, it was a stupid question to ask, there are entire forums dedicated to what types of strings are better than other brands. My knowledge and skill is so limited that any piece of crap will probably do for now. I shouldn't have asked.
Quote Posted by qolelis
I am more of a technician than a musician
So am I. I would probably have made a pretty decent producer, I'm quite good at twiddling knobs and make sounds sound a certain way, copy a style from elsewhere or just make up noisy shit, but not a talented musician. That's probably why I love my Nord Micro Modular so much, like a mini version of a proper modular synth, albeit through a computer interface.
Quote Posted by qolelis
"thousand monkeys..."
With my limited ability, I can't really aim for Shakespeare no matter how many halfbaked works I produce. At best, perhaps a Garfield cartoon. Metaphorically speaking.
Quote Posted by qolelis
impostor
I get that feeling in other aspects of life, but not with music, because I know I'm shit and make no ways to try to hide that. The only time I get a feeling of impostor syndrome in music is when other people mistakenly assume I am a musician, but I try to correct them as quickly as possible. If asked what instrument I play, I usually say I play the drum machine. That is either met with a blank stare, or a laugh if they get what I mean.
Quote Posted by qolelis
Do you enjoy creating the things you create more than you hate it? Then continue doing it. For me, it's like an itch, a sometimes unscratchable itch, but I still need to scratch it.
That's exactly it. I'm not really making it for other people, just for myself and get it out of my system. However, the masochist in me tricked me into uploading to Soundcloud, so I can now worry about what other people think.
Quote Posted by scumble
It's arranged well
I disagree, I can immediatly spot several flaws in it, mainly where it's just the bass and the track sort of dies, but thanks being kind and for not pointing that out. Not to mention that there isn's an ending, I just ran out of ideas and didn't want to repeat bits too much.
Quote Posted by qolelis
Also, try not to compare yourself too much to others.
I don't, really, except I just did in my previous post. I usually don't compare myself because I know how limited I am, it was just the feeling of coming home from an awesome gig that shone a big bright spotlight onto the fact that I'm not really a musician, just some pretentious dweeb who'd like to be.
[Edit]
When I make stuff, I usually start with a drum beat or a bass groove, but they tend to go nowhere or eventually all just end up with the same chord progressions. One idea I had lately was that I should start working from a different angle, with lyrics, or at the very least a theme or plan. I'm a terrible lyricist and so far have only been able to write about halfmade songs that usually turn into crap after about 4 lines, but maybe that's because I'm trying to write lyrics and music at the same time. Perhaps it's time to change my working methods, try to write words first, starting with thinking about what I want to say, then put some music behind it to fill in the gaps or portray the emotion I'm aiming for with the words. This may sound obvious to you actual musicians out there, but I've never tried doing it that way because I consider lyrics to be my weak point, as opposed to drum machine programming where I feel I'm pretty strong. It will just take me quite a lot of effort to write something that isn't awful, and I expect a lot of rewriting.
demagogue on 13/7/2019 at 00:07
I recall some interview with Paul McCartney where he was explaining the Beatles' method of song-making, and he said at the start they typically took a couple of ideas from other songs and put them together with their own tweaks.
That turned out to be a useful idea for me. I'll listen to other songs actively listening for ideas, like some kind of repeating hook or chord progression or a call & response or stops or the way the bridge comes in, whatever, then lift it & tweak it to make it your own. Then you start with that idea and build the rest of the song around it.
Generally I think just having some chords or ideas scribbled on paper to start with is what's most important, so you have something to build on. This is also such a personal thing though. Different methods work for different people, even the same people at different times.
Gray on 13/7/2019 at 00:19
That reminds me of a David Bowie interview from the 70s, where he cut out random words and put them into a hat and drew them out one by one, and tried to assemble a song from that. Some rewriting, sure, but he claimed that method triggered his creativity. One other thing he said was that to make a song more interesting was to play ONE note off key. If people hear it once, they'll think it's a mistake, but if you repeat it they'll think it's a brilliant arrangement.
Not that I'm a massive Bowie fan, but it was interesting to hear his views on song writing. I've used the latter trick a few times, perhaps it's time to try the former.
Twist on 13/7/2019 at 15:58
Speaking of Paul McCartney....
When I was about 15 or so, I read an interview where he talked about writing songs by starting with the vocal melody, then afterwards composing the chords to fit and accentuate the melody. Simple enough, but at that point my little "post-punk art rock" band (as we labeled ourselves at the time) wrote songs entirely the other way: we'd compose these sophomoric over-complicated mini-symphonies, then the singer had to come up with a vocal melody and lyric to put over the top of it.
Even on simpler songs it could be difficult for the vocalist to come up with a lyric and melody that fit the tone of the chord & key changes, rhythms and arrangement.
So when we tried a few songs where we honed a clean, clear melody, and then arranged the song around that, it was an incredible epiphany and we had an unusually prolific period of writing.
(Note: in the case of instrumental compositions, this could still mean starting with the melody or repeated hook of the piece rather than a vocal melody. Obvious, sure, but I know how easy it is to get stuck in a rut when it comes to thinking about composition.)
I'm not suggesting it's the better way to write; I'm just suggesting that taking a completely different approach to how you usually compose a song can surface ideas -- and even whole stylistic decisions -- you may have never otherwise experienced.
Because I was a guitarist first, I always wrote the riff or chords and the structure of the song first, then wrote the melody. So for naive little me that one interview was an odd eye-opener to a whole new way of seeing composition.
I imagine you could accomplish something similar by starting with a completely different instrument or timbre than you usually use. Today sometimes I'll just put one of my guitars in an exotic (or at least unfamiliar to me) alternate tuning, and that will trigger me to compose with new and different chords or chord voicings.
Volitions Advocate on 15/7/2019 at 05:27
If you ever decide to go the sibelius route, try MuseScore instead. It's free and pretty much just as good.
(
https://musescore.org/en)
Gray on 17/7/2019 at 09:49
Back in the olden days, by my standards somewhere in 1981-ish, I learned to play the recorder flute-type-thingy, and was forced to learn how to read sheet music to do so. I hated it at the time, but it served me well half a decade later when my first sequencer used the same notation. I did eventually see the value of reading standard sheet music notation. Now, that was decades ago, and I've pretty much forgotten all about it. I can probably decode sheet music, very very slowly, if I pay close attention to it which I won't, because I'm lacking the braincells to do so nowadays, both of mine are busy elsewhere.
And yes, I do agree that picking up an instrument you're not previously familiar with can break your preconceptions, that's why I got a ukulele and harmonicas a decade or so ago. What I learned from that is that I'm crap at the ukulele and harmonicas.
But hey, I'm still hoping to learn something new that I might not be as crap at.
[Edit]
I can't leave this sheet music conversation without some reference to Frank Zappa. My wife was a huge Zappa fan, and I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something like he just like how blots looked on the sheets, not how it actually sounded, which may explain why so many of his arrangements may seem so random. Then again, that be just the same mythology building as Bowie was doing with the hat. I remember a 60s clip where Zappa was playing the bicycle, so I'm inclined to belive it.
[Edit again]
Ok, I uploaded another thing. This time, I know it's derivative crap, so please don't hold in your criticism. Point out any flaws you can find, I'm aware of at least a few of them. Again, it's short and it goes nowhere. it's just basically a bouncy drumbeat dressed up a bit with some old stale crap. But, the reason I'm exposing you to it is because it makes me dance in my chair. That doesn't mean much, I'm old and clearly out of touch with modern music, so go ahead, rip it to shreds.
(
https://soundcloud.com/user-188042036/mondays) https://soundcloud.com/user-188042036/mondays
[Edit once again]
For some odd reason, the 808 break doesn't sound right in that clip, maybe something went wrong in the conversion, I'll have a look. It's supposed to be stereo-panned.