A plea for Dromed setup guidance in 2023...

VoiceActor on 10/7/2023 at 16:59

Hi good folks,

BACKGROUND INFO (skippable as TL;DR)

I have wanted to try a beginner's hand at creating an FM. I have reinstalled, and reinstalled again, DromEd with various configs and support scripts and mods and I get variance in performance between two separate setups. I've got a typical Komag menu set to both. One is built as Thief2 1.26 GOG updated by 1.27e with Mods (and virt all submods ticked), HDMod1.0, and extra Bullet Dromed scripts on top of Komag's.

This works fine, but I am wary of using HDMod at all, because textures don't translate between a non-HDmodded DromEd build and a modded one. Plenty of textures go missing which makes you think in your beginner's ignorance "When I've finally packaged up a finished FM, will it work for other players?" Who knows...!

My other setup is the same but a bit more standard, with no HDMod1.0. This seemed to work fine but then I realized it actually has a flaw - no mantle sound from Garrett at all. I get footsteps, I even get perfect EAX if I want. But no mantle sound, nor AI voice sounds - e.g. a scared servant. I open the same .mis in my HDMod version of DromEd and all the sounds are there, so surely the .mis is built right and it must be a fault in my more standard DromEd setup?

This all makes me doubt my understanding of how I should create the RIGHT editing setup for this year, 2023. Yeah, there are many tuts out there and I've read an awful lot of them. Problem is, they span 20 years of advice and somewhat conflict - eek!

THE MAIN REQUEST TO MASTER EDITOR / DESIGNERS:

Can someone please describe a 'from scratch' process (assume starting with a new PC with no Thief installed) of how to ensure Dromed is perfectly set up please? I need the most common, 'always-works' editing setup that is relevant to building a working FM in 2023.

Not after mega detail (unless you are willing of course!), but definitely enough detail to guide all us beginners accurately, in steps. Something like "Install 'xx version of Thief2 as a base", "Next add 1.27e with the following setting choices (all detail here please)", Next add these extras (a start list of widely used / useful stuff would be great - if you name the useful ones, I'll do the huntdown), Next - advise (where necessary) about tweaks to configs (essential ones only) to ensure the most compliant common setup.

Any help and guidance would be very much appreciated to whoever wants to take on this advice. There are so many links here and elsewhere you could point to, but from what I can see, they are all out-of-date or conflictive (is that a word?!), so my request is to place something new here, so all beginners can benefit.

I like the Discord channel and it has certainly been helpful, but IMHO it has a singular (and large) caveat in that its knowledge and findings never seemingly get transferred over to here in TTLG. We are all of us losing knowledge I suppose, in this brilliant encyclopedia that TTLG has become, and which has supported us all over the years. Discord is fine and I am certainly not knocking it, but we need to please also keep TTLG up to date with modern advice.

Fingers crossed for help, and thanks in advance if you take this on from scratch.

VoiceActor

R Soul on 10/7/2023 at 20:49

There will be people who can provide some good info, but it's hard to know where to start without knowing exactly what the GOG installation puts on your PC. I've never used that site. Is the download just a bundle of T2Fix and the original CD files (i.e. an image of the CDs), or is there another install tool? In other words, what do you mean by "Thief2 1.26 GOG updated by 1.27e with Mods"?

An alternative way to understand your main installation (the one with various mods) is to open up cam_mod.ini (with Notpad, Notepad++, or any text editor). The mod_path line at the end tells the game/Dromed what mods to load. Each item will point to folders (e.g. HDMod) or .crf files (e.g. ep2.crf), which are renamed .zip files containing folders and resource files.

VoiceActor on 10/7/2023 at 23:05

Thanks for asking these useful questions R Soul. I wasn't clear at the outset and I guess this is not so helpful. If I go to gog.com and get their T2 version, it gets installed as "Thief2 ND 1.26" direct from their site. The first thing I think of doing as per advice is get that updated with T2fix 1.27e to bring it up to par. For DromEd usage, I then have to 'guess' whether I need, or don't need, some, or all of the mods version of '1.27e with mods' (I assume I do need that version), and I patch Thief New Dark 1.26 (GOG vsn) with '1.27e with mods'.

This is my cam_mod.ini for a fresh install (1.26) from gog.com:-

Code:

; ----------
; FM options
; ----------

; FM selection can also be done with command-line options (which override mod.ini)
; -fm : to start the FM Selector
; -fm=name : to start game with 'name' as active FM

; always start the FM Selector (if one is present)
;fm

; start game with FM (the name is the FM's directory name, located in the FM path)
;fm TheDarkMansion

; to specify a path other than the default "FMs" (the specified path must exist or
; it won't be accepted and the game falls back to the default path)
;fm_path .\FMs

; a single relative path name to override the FM movie directory
; default is "Movies" for Thief and "cutscenes" for Shock
;fm_movie_dir Movies

; define the library name of an alternative FM Selector, the default is "fmsel.dll"
;fm_selector fmsel.dll

; prevent the FM Selector DLL to be unloaded when continuing to main game (can be useful
; if you experience crashes when FM Selector closes)
;no_unload_fmsel

; an FM Selector is a separate library (DLL) containing a utility, usually a UI based
; application that lists the available FMs and lets the user pick which one to run.
; A selector could range from a simple list box with the FM names to a full blown
; manager with extended info, last played timestamps, sorting/filtering etc.

; ---------
; Mod paths
; ---------

; the max path count is 63 for "uber_mod_path" and "mod_path" combined
; (avoid an excessive amount of paths, it can make file handling slower)
;
; the full path search order is (starting with highest priority)
; uber_mod_path -> FM dir (if active) -> mod_path -> resname_base(/movie_path/etc.)

; these are mod paths that override the active FM in the search order
;uber_mod_path mods\UpToDateOSMs+MyGemMod

; these are normal mod paths which are applied after the active FM in the search order
;mod_path MyBowMod+.\TexturePack

The next task I do is right click the Thief install folder (in this case c:\T2) and remove Read Only for all contents.

I then run "1.27e with mods" as follows...

(https://ibb.co/6g5QqQp)

Inline Image:

https://i.ibb.co/5BVZJZz/127-1.jpg

(https://ibb.co/Cz2SLfF)

Inline Image:

https://i.ibb.co/JKQSZ9P/127-2.jpg

(https://ibb.co/mTVNZRB)

Inline Image:

https://i.ibb.co/02Rs4nX/127-3.jpg

...but I don't really know if this is best for DromEd usage.

This is the updated cam_mod.ini after 1.27e is installed as above:

Code:

; ----------
; FM options
; ----------

; FM selection can also be done with command-line options (which override mod.ini)
; -fm : to start the FM Selector
; -fm=name : to start game with 'name' as active FM

; always start the FM Selector (if one is present)
;fm

; start game with FM (the name is the FM's directory name, located in the FM path)
;fm TheDarkMansion

; to specify a path other than the default "FMs" (the specified path must exist or
; it won't be accepted and the game falls back to the default path)
;fm_path .\FMs

; a single relative path name to override the FM movie directory
; default is "Movies" for Thief and "cutscenes" for Shock
;fm_movie_dir Movies

; define the library name of an alternative FM Selector, the default is "fmsel.dll"
;fm_selector fmsel.dll

; prevent the FM Selector DLL to be unloaded when continuing to main game (can be useful
; if you experience crashes when FM Selector closes)
;no_unload_fmsel

; an FM Selector is a separate library (DLL) containing a utility, usually a UI based
; application that lists the available FMs and lets the user pick which one to run.
; A selector could range from a simple list box with the FM names to a full blown
; manager with extended info, last played timestamps, sorting/filtering etc.

; ---------
; Mod paths
; ---------

; the max path count is 63 for "uber_mod_path" and "mod_path" combined
; (avoid an excessive amount of paths, it can make file handling slower)
;
; the full path search order is (starting with highest priority)
; uber_mod_path -> FM dir (if active) -> mod_path -> resname_base(/movie_path/etc.)

; these are mod paths that override the active FM in the search order
;uber_mod_path mods\UpToDateOSMs+MyGemMod
uber_mod_path .\OSM

; these are normal mod paths which are applied after the active FM in the search order
;mod_path MyBowMod+.\TexturePack
mod_path .\MODS\Candles+.\MODS\CarryBody+.\MODS\t2water+.\MODS\t2skies+.\MODS\NewT2SFX+.\MODS\EP+.\MODS\Thief2 Fixed+.\MODS\Subtitles+.\MODS\T2FMDML

I then edit the DromEd.cfg to accommodate my display size and how I want it laid out etc. That's all fine.

Once I've done all this, I finally add Komag menu and scripts from

(http://www.keepofmetalandgold.com/files/MenusKomag.zip)

and install them. I used to add Bullet DromEd over the top as instructed but kept getting a missing font issue CPP line 105 error even though the font was fine. I have no idea if I should be using Bullet or whatever other scripts are useful - suggestions welcome!

I could be overthinking all this I know, but you get that with beginners!

Thanks,
VA

Twist on 11/7/2023 at 21:36

Nicked's tutorial might be the closest thing to what you want:

(https://nickdablin.wordpress.com/2014/01/13/absolute-beginners-guide-to-creating-a-thief-2-mission-part-one/) Absolute Beginner’s Guide to Creating a Mission for Thief 2

Someone way more experienced than me ought to offer you some advice, but two thoughts I had reading your posts:

1. If you're a beginner and you just want to build, it's best to not install any mods in your Dromed install. Except for the required OSM files (the ones installed with the uber_mod_path), you don't need any of the other mods. They're all optional player-oriented mods. You can easily disable them all by just putting a semicolon before the mod_path line (NOT the uber_mod_path line -- you DO need that one).

This will keep your install simpler and minimize potential problems. Also, it's nearly impossible to anticipate what all mod combinations players will use when playing your mission. So as a beginner, building with a vanilla install increases the likelihood of people having a somewhat consistent experience of your mission. Or as Nick says in his tutorial:

Quote:

Along the required NewDark 1.27, tick Dromed Level Editor. Everything else is optional. You can see what each item is by hovering over it. For editing, it’s generally a good idea to leave your install as clean as possible, without any enhancement mods. This is because if you build something with graphical mods, when you come to release the mission you may find that players without the mods see incorrect textures or slightly-misplaced object models.

2. Maybe I'm completely mistaken (and someone will hopefully correct me, if so), but those komag menus are ancient files and may not be fully compatible with NewDark's Dromed. I wouldn't use those until you really know what you're doing, if at all.

Anyways... hope this helps and hopefully someone else pipes in with more experienced advice. :thumb:

R Soul on 11/7/2023 at 22:46

It's probably a combination of mods you've installed (high-res graphics, high-fidelity sounds) and the "high preset" option in T2Fix.

It looks like the GOG isntallation on its own is just the original game with the 1.26 NewDark patch. For upgrading it to 1.27, "T2Fix 1.27e (without mods)" ((https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149669) from this page) is fine, but since you've already downloaded the "...with mods" version, you could run that with most of the checkboxes deselcted. The only ones you need are Dromed 1.27 and the Dromed Basic Toolkit.

I think I used T2Fix Lite for a super pure experience, but either of the above look fine to use.

All of the options are explained in that thread, but here's my suggestion:
I suggest the Medium preset (or Low of your computer is a complete potato). Note that the presets just change which checkboxes are selected in the 'Config options' window. Best to go with your own assessment of how good your computer is. Also note that none of these options are set in stone. The thread shows in brackets the values you can look for in cam_ext.cfg if you want to experiment after the installation is complete.

OpenAL Soft emulates the EAX system (reverb) the original game/old sound cards supported, so that's okay to select (you can turn it on/off in the game's sound menu)

I think libmp3lame is for giving the game support for mp3 files. There may be some copyright reason why the NewDark authors preferred to use this rather than integrate it directly. In other words, it's best to select this.

Clean up install directory is also recommended. I think this combines two sets of the original resource files. They were only ever separate because the CD was version 1.07 and the 1.18 patch came as a download which included some resource updates.

Shorcuts, up to you. The FM selctor one will run the game (not sure if it also does one for Dromed) which launches the built-in FM manager. No harm in selecting this but I recommend using AngelLoader to handle FMs (including whatever FM you build). They both put installed FMs in an "C\...\Thief2\FMs" folder, which neatly keeps all their files in one place, and not mixed in with the orignal files, and allows multiple FMs to be installed at once.

Config Options button:
The left-hand ones will be greyed out if you previously chose 'don't modify'. It looks like two of the best ones will be enabled anway (e.g. New Mantle).

On the right-hand side, the second option only affects playing missions in game. LGS allowed FireArrows to open metal doors. I recommend selecting it just so that what you experience in Dromed matches what the game does. You can remove this feature/oversight from your own FM at a later date if necessary.

I'm not sure exactly what the option about 1.18 resources is doing. The description says it includes all official patches so it may be okay to leave this unchecked.

Dromed Hardware rendering: your choice. Soft-edged pixels or hard-edged.

Improved arm meshes: suggest you turn this off so that you know whether or not your own FM has any custom arm meshes (quite rare for people to do this).

If you selected the Dromed Basic Toolkit (I recommend it) there's no need for the Komag menus. The latter package is mostly fine but due to its age it'll be missing a few imortant/useful things specific to NewDark.

Bullet Dromed is another type of 'toolikt' package. I haven't used it but it's possible there was an installation error which caused the missing font message.

VoiceActor on 13/7/2023 at 16:47

Thanks so much to both of you R Soul and Twist. That is a lot of information and a few eye openers in there. I assumed all players ran T2fix with mods so they get the best experience - hence the idea that I should match that in designing a mission. However, your logic is much better - because yes, the MOST compliant I can be is run without mods in a design. Click! :laff: After all, the mods inherently have to update any non-modded setup without causing losses, so I agree, why use them to start with. No mods = works with all. Mods = only works with people who use mods. THANKS! :)

I did solve the issue of mantling sounds missing after reading what you said R Soul about the cam_mod.ini. I was such a dope - I had copied over one too many config files from a working setup and the cam_mod was one of them - no wonder it messed me up.

I always use AngelLoader (of course!) and all that stuff is fine, as is the design environment (set my nVidia gfx mode to a custom 1920 x 1130 @ 120Hz on a 4k freesync mon) which gives me a perfect 1920 x 1080 DromEd with menus showing. PC is very decent so that's why I chose high modes. I'll keep them methinks. EAX is also perfect - runs like a dream. I am however, concerned about the Komag menu config which to me, seems brilliantly thought out. Has anyone had any issues designing with this cos I love it! Any enhanced menu suggestions would be welcome however. I may design my own eventually though.

I'm now set up tidily so will begin dreaming up a mission with more confidence. I gotta say, DromEd is addictive already and navigating everything is becoming 'natural' not forced if you know what I mean? It has its quirks but I find it (so far) quite intuitive.

Lots to re-read there cos I will no doubt have missed other useful points. (Nice to talk to you again by the way Twist and hope all is well) :)

Thanks again both
VA

R Soul on 13/7/2023 at 20:14

Quote Posted by VoiceActor

I am however, concerned about the Komag menu config which to me, seems brilliantly thought out. Has anyone had any issues designing with this cos I love it! Any enhanced menu suggestions would be welcome however. I may design my own eventually though.

My suggestion for using the menu from DromedBasic was mainly because they were made with some NewDark changes in mind. If you'd prefer to use Komag's menus, some things will need to be considered:
The command light_bright (which was for terrain only) no longer works properly, and has been replaced by toggle_lighting (which does terrain and Komag's menus will use the former (along with lit_obj_toggle, which is still supported but probably unnecessary now).

Years ago I wrote a tutorial about customizing the menus. It explains the structure of the file:
(https://dromed.whoopdedo.org/dromed/custom_menus)
However, it'll take time and experience to get an understanding of the most useful commands/menu items, so I'd suggest using this just to tweak the Komag menu to make it more compatible with NewDark.

VoiceActor on 13/7/2023 at 21:58

Quote Posted by R Soul

The command light_bright (which was for terrain only) no longer works properly, and has been replaced by toggle_lighting (which does terrain and Komag's menus will use the former (along with lit_obj_toggle, which is still supported but probably unnecessary now).

So if I just change these two I should be okay I think? Have tried it and seems okay (I left in the commented sections to show what I replaced i.e kill off the redundant light_bright lit_obj_toggle 0 and light_bright lit_obj_toggle 1 'lof' and 'lon' commands):-

Code:

menu_view Toggle Light (Ctl-Shft-O):toggle_lighting ;Toggle Lighting
;menu_view Light Bright:light_bright|Light Objects:lit_obj_toggle|All Light On:run lon.cmd
menu_view_1 Toggle Lit Objects (Ctl+O):lit_obj_toggle
;menu_view_1 All Light Off:run lof.cmd|Editor Shadows/Low Detail:mip_detail 0

...

VoiceActor on 13/7/2023 at 22:30

Actually... I've rechecked the original menus and whereas before I was a bit daunted by them, they now oddly make better sense than the komag ones - I suppose cos I understand a bit more from having used so many menu choices now.

So great advice again - komags are dropped and I'm back to DromedBasic as suggested.

Thanks for your help

VA

Mike34 on 8/9/2023 at 04:55

Quote Posted by R Soul

My suggestion for using the menu from DromedBasic was mainly because they were made with some NewDark changes in mind. If you'd prefer to use Komag's menus, some things will need to be considered:
The command light_bright (which was for terrain only) no longer works properly, and has been replaced by toggle_lighting (which does terrain and Komag's menus will use the former (along with lit_obj_toggle, which is still supported but probably unnecessary now).

Years ago I wrote a tutorial about customizing the menus. It explains the structure of the file:
(https://dromed.whoopdedo.org/dromed/custom_menus) (https://connectionsnyt.com) connections
However, it'll take time and experience to get an understanding of the most useful commands/menu items, so I'd suggest using this just to tweak the Komag menu to make it more compatible with NewDark.

Thanks for your guide, I will try to use it for tuning