oRGy on 9/6/2002 at 04:15

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Yes, I know, I haven't played the game yet so I am going out on a limb completely, but I have been keeping close watch on what has been going on since MW is released yeah?

Yeh. Re the balance issues - ie mw too easy/unrealistic, few reasons:

1) terrible ai
2) ubiquity and cheapness of uber items
3) leveling too fast
4) economy makes no sense

now, most of them are fixable by patching or expansions to the game but..

I mean, this whole leveling up business.

It, er, doesn't make much sense, does it?

Its player feedback right?

Our character is progressing in the world. Fine.
But there are several other ways we measure our progress in game such as MW or DF or whathaveyou, eg:
1) your money
2) your equipment or spells
3) your reputation and political influence
4) your property, if any
5) your legal status
6) your guild status, if any
7) your relation to the plot and story of the game
8) your companions, if any
and then we have
9) your "level".

I mean.. it strikes me as increasingly unimmersive. We have all these natural feedback systems, that anyone can relate to and which we value as important, and then we have this nebulous "level" which has no apparent modern justification. The immediate effect of the level system appears to be either

1) at low levels, your character, despite being a prime young man/lady who has spent years training in a fighting school (if that char is a warrior), struggles to hit a large crab more than 1 in 3 times

2) at high levels, after a few weeks or months of game time, you have gone from feeble fop to conan the barbarian. no swordfighter within 1000 miles, even 1000 year old elves, can touch you.

Another effect in MW is that you start as a clearly-defined (though feebly weak) character, and end up as an uber-jackofalltrades god. Roleplaying in reverse.

Now, in games such as BG2, this was fine because a) you had literal godly power and b) the game made no attempt to pretend it was a simulation of anything, its pure geek numbers and swords +2 shit yeah?

Now any RPG or computer game must be based in someways on numbers (especially with varying levels of equipment) obviously enough, but why this leveling system? It seems bizarre in a self-consciously immersive game. I mean, it seems to be there just because no-one has had the courage to get rid of it properly. So my proposal would be:

You start out, as one might expect - a young but reasonably mature person, an equivalent of a college graduate perhaps. That is: You have specialised in certain skills. You are proficent in them. You cannot raise them any higher. Taking MW as a template, this might mean a starting warrior would be:

MAJOR:
Long Blade= 100
Axe=100
Heavy Armour=100

Minor ones might be 75ish ones, you know, ones you're ok at. Obviously 100 in MW is very powerful, the numbers above are just the idea.

Now, in my opinion, you can then roleplay in character. However this demands:

*) Really decent AI. Post Thief level. Necessary for thiefy characters.
*) Realistic simulations of everything - economy, npc scheduling, physics.

Its like MW would become Die by the Sword + Thief + (er..)Black and White all rolled into one big ball, or something.

The main objection I see:
OH NOE IT IS TEH ACTION GAEM

I say to that, poo. MW is slash slash hack action all the fucking way. It's just half the time you're crap at it. Computer games are about your own skills as much as the fucker you're pretending to control. RPGs aren't number machines in which you fight mobs to make your level go higher so you can fight tougher beasts again ad nauseam, you're supposed to choose a character and be that character, yeah? So wisha.

Basically, benefits = more time spent on game balance, ai, physics, gameplay complexity, immersive stuff.
cons = no more pretty you have leveled up messages

;)

Now, if I had MW and the editor, I'd immediately see if I could create a custom class/mod sorta deal that has one creating a character with good skills appropriate to his character, who can't level up or up their skills/attribs, and see how that improves the game. (have to disable books, trainers and prison effects too, hurumph. also ninja monkeys*)

Way I see it now: People just go through the game to level up and fight bigger monsters and become characters that can do everything.

ok off to bed. :)

PS - *: Ninja monkeys. I mean, come on. If this isn't abrogating interesting gameplay and design to the whims of the number machine, <i>what is</i>? ;)

oRGy on 9/6/2002 at 04:30

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I'm not talking about whether MW is any good/immersive/enjoyable or not (I'm sure it is), I'm talking about the leveling and skill points system as a meta concept. Since I have played Arena and Daggerfall extensively, I know what I am talking about in this regard.

any comments I make about MW (poor AI, broken economy, easy combat) have been made by countless others so I take them to be largely true

ie, read my fuckin post not just the first line :p

Tuco on 9/6/2002 at 06:46

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Please summarize your long post in one sentance... 10 words max. I can't be arsed to read all that. But, if



Is what you think is smart, then no. That'd be boring because only about 5% of the combat would be challenging.

BattleMage on 9/6/2002 at 11:05

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Impressive colleges you have in Ireland! If I understood right, what you are saying is that the level concept is bad. Well, look at it this way. To your natural feedback list you should add "skill" with level being the sum of all your skills. Thus level is really easy to relate to in real life. Morrowind is actually a skill based game, not level based.
It's also a character development game: one of the fun parts of games like this is to improve your character. Removing this aspect is like taking away an entire dimension. It doesn't improve realism or immersiveness, because you can improve your skills in real life by practise, training and studying, so why not in a role playing game?My knowledge of the english language is obviously lacking here, could you explain this in easier language for the mentally challenged like me?

That would be really easy to do.

Good point as far as their autolevel ability goes. It doesn't add any realism to the world. But still, they do help to keep the world challenging.
Without their autoleveling ability though, they are simply a must have. The world would be really dull if you could kill everything and it wouldn't be repopulated. The ninja monkeys simply represent creatures who come from other places to repopulate the areas which the player has killed off.

SuperTech on 9/6/2002 at 22:13

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I read your posts and not just the first line. Like I stated every person is different and I found no trouble with the game except for the clipping problems. If you want a true assesment then do not speak out of hearsay but learn for yourself. Leveling system IMHO is no different than games of this nature since they began. Without a leveling system the game would be no different than Adventure or Zork. =P