the_grip on 12/9/2007 at 19:59
catbarf, i think you can answer your own question:
If evolution is true, why does that mean God was lying or wrong?
Why does the age of the earth matter? The Bible does not give an account of the age of the earth.
The mistake many fundies Christian and many Christian critics make is that they either think the Bible says things it doesn't or that they take it in a very rigid literal sense. In terms of the latter, most people don't apply this rubric to other works of literature, but for some reason the Bible is regarded in this manner.
Does that help?
(as an aside, just so you know where i am coming from, i'm a Catholic Christian who believes that the message of the Bible was inspired by God and is meant as communication from him - to put it in a trite way - but it was written by human authors at varying periods of time in various genres of literature and thus is not meant to be understood in an rote literal manner)
HTH explain where some of us wacky Christians are coming from ;)
the_grip on 12/9/2007 at 20:03
Quote Posted by SD
Isn't evolution itself an implicit argument against the existence of God though? I mean, if we accept that evolution by natural selection, where individuals inherit characteristics that give them a survival and reproductive advantage in their local environments, is the one and only way in which higher intelligences arise, then the whole idea that a supra-human intelligence capable of creating universes appeared one day out of nothing is just a little far-fetched.
Not really - someone who believes in God would simply say that he designed evolution as the means for creation. In other words, God knew in advance which species would survive, which wouldn't, etc. etc.
All this said, i do agree that this has nothing to do with 9/11 or this thread topic and is likely to spiral in endless debate. Thus, i'm closing up shop... i just wanted to offer a perspective on all this in answer to some of the questions.
SD on 12/9/2007 at 21:13
Quote Posted by the_grip
Not really - someone who believes in God would simply say that he designed evolution as the means for creation. In other words, God knew in advance which species would survive, which wouldn't, etc. etc.
Well why would he bother "designing" evolution at all? Why not just design species and plonk them on Earth? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and moreover, appears to be adding more components to the mix than are really necessary - namely, God himself.
Evolution without God makes a whole lot more sense than evolution with. Evolution with God is just a ham-fisted attempt to shoehorn God into something where human progress has shown him to be utterly extraneous. "Oh shit, evolution proves God didn't design stuff like we said he did" - "Okay, fine, let's just say he designed evolution instead!"
Truly He is a God of the Gaps.
the_grip on 12/9/2007 at 21:21
Okay, i closed up shop, but i'll respond one time as food for thought for you (i don't intend to carry on this discussion beyond this post... i'm just making two final remarks):
1. Why does evolution without God make more sense than evolution with God? i don't see the connection here.
2. "Oh shit, evolution proves God didn't design stuff like we said he did" - who is "we"? Are you referring to specific people?
Just some final thoughts... the "OMFG LET THIS THREAD DIE LOLZ" comments will start coming soon, so i'll anticipate their arrival and close up shop for real this time. Peace out.
SD on 12/9/2007 at 21:59
Quote Posted by the_grip
1. Why does evolution without God make more sense than evolution with God?
Because it's simpler.
I go into the forest and find a pine cone on the ground: what makes more sense? (a) The cone fell off the tree branch naturally or (b) it fell off the branch because God shook the branch and made it fall?
If you believe in God, it's only natural you want to find a place for him in the scheme of things. The trouble for believers is that his role has been gradually reduced over time from designer and builder of everything you see around you to passive observer and occasional branch-shaker.
When I say he is "(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps) God of the Gaps", I mean that his existence, his divine influence, is restricted only to those gaps in our knowledge and understanding of the universe. As those gaps are gradually being closed by science, God has fewer and fewer gaps to retreat into. Time to pension him off permanently I think.
Quote:
2. "Oh shit, evolution proves God didn't design stuff like we said he did" - who is "we"? Are you referring to specific people?
Yes - people who say God designed stuff.
Vivian on 12/9/2007 at 22:32
Well, thats my view as well, but you can't disprove there is a god or gods or whatever that just set things up so they play out in a way that can be explained logically without recourse to supernatural (i.e. massively unobserved) phenomena. So why argue about it! The things that can be disproved generally get disproved, evo hasn't been yet and doesn't look likely to be, let people believe whatever makes them happy about stuff that can't. As long as we all agree on what can be sensibly called 'the facts', then what does it matter?
Scots Taffer on 13/9/2007 at 00:02
Quote Posted by Stitch
have you fucking seen a platypus
more like the Candirú
god sure can be a bastard :(
also:
Quote Posted by SD
Well why would he bother "designing" evolution at all? Why not just design species and plonk them on Earth?
I like to think that evolution is free will for genetics and biological systems. :angel:
fett on 13/9/2007 at 00:36
Quote Posted by Moi Dix Mois
The only way anything good can come from this thread now is if fett starts posting.
HAY GUYS HAVE U EVAR THOGHT OF TALKING ABOUT GOD AND EVOLUTON ON HEAR??!@!
Seriously - what the fuck? We're going to solve that on a TTLG thread?
At the risk of reverting to my Bible Thumping ways - I do agree with Spaztick that Shroeder's book "The Science of God" is great. It's based on research that was conducted at Harvard by Berry Setterfield and it's a fascinating read if you're at all interested in quantam theory as it relates to metaphysical Stuff. And it would enlighten the hardcore evolution people as to how intelligent Christians can buy the creationist view and still be intelligent. (STOP COPYING HERE TO QUOTE FOR RESPONSE WITH AD HOC "ALL CREATIONISTS ARE
FOOLS!! RHETORIC)
What does that have to do with Iraq or 9/11?
catbarf - Please don't start shitting all over the forum with 'THE BIBLE IS FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS' garbage when I highly doubt you could even name two legitimate ones (hint - they have to do with punctuation problems in the translations and zero to do with theology). You don't want to go there do you? No, you don't.
As for believing in truly Biblical Creation and Evolution, it's possible, but only in a few irrelevant areas. There are a few ways to wiggle through it if you take a very staunch reading of Genesis, but it falls to shit when you revert to Hebrew. I think you guys may be confusing evolution with biogenesis. The Bible jives with evolution in terms of species adaptation, "survival of the fittest" etc. but it won't wash with biogenesis because the Bible points to a creator for the answer to origins, whereas as biogenesis points to...well, to itself.
This concludes my angry post-Christian insight for this week. Tune in next week for the rousing essay, "Adam - belly button, or no?"
Rogue Keeper on 13/9/2007 at 07:55
Quote Posted by Stitch
It's a stupid belief because it ignores that evolution is by definition an ongoing process of adaptation. The system is functioning "perfectly," as you put it, because if something is out of whack it either adapts to survive or dies off. That's evolution, no hand of god needed. Additionally, citing the perfection of the state of the system as proof of god shows a distinct lack of perspective. Is the system really perfect or is it merely
what we know?I presented considerable POSSIBILITIES, I didn't say they're ultimate hard facts. Curiously, you have just presented a possibility that evolution process occures spontaneoulsy - but you didn't manage to subvert my presented possibilities in any serious way. The DNA of living organisms just could have been as well constructed and programmed by higher intelligent entity for adaptation to changing environment.
There would be a possibility that we might be forbidden to know too much about the system or that some aspects of the system are forbiddent for us to understand until we reach certain evolutionary level. Now it looks like the time is coming when we are almost capable of creating an arteficial life. And if we manage to do that, we should also consider the possibility that for this life we may become their Gods.
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against the existence of god ... but to view the concept of "reality's perfection as proof of god" as anything other than whimsical fantasy is absurd.
Again, I present possibilities I believe, not a proof. See above. I'm not a God and I can't prove myself. Even if I was, would I care about your opinion, little bug? So you can't disporove God's existence either, but you still don't like my idea. That's fine. But what is this whimsical fantasy? Whose fantasy?
The concept of God is beyond science and many empiric scientists admit that. I can very well imagine two well respected scientists arguing about the concept of God in their favourite pub. I personally like respected Czech astonomer (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji%C5%99%C3%AD_Grygar) Jiri Grygar and his thoughts on intelligent mind behind the universe (far as I'm aware he's an atheist) : "There might be a possibility that we are merely experiment animals in a laboratory of some giant space scientist beyond our awareness."
But that's why some atheists don't understand or don't want to understand simply because the thought that their surroundings are managed by higher intelligence would be inconvenient for them, leading further to ideas of fatalism and depression coming from thoughts that their lives are not completely in their control. This fear is quite childish, but that's understandable, since humans are still only kids fooling around on their small playground.
There is also possibility that God has programmed us to question and doubt his existence.
Quote Posted by Stitch
It's a very stupid belief, and stupid beliefs create stupid people, and stupid people post on my internet
And you are often so vocal on the internet, Stitchy. :sly:
