Grabski on 15/12/2023 at 03:16
Quote Posted by Kerrle
It's a more complex set of missions than the original games; what's your computer's hardware like?
I am playing on M1 Max, 32 Gb through Wine emulator (receding into bushes)
I know it is 32 bit, very old engine, but I've been emulating much more complex 32bit games without dropping frame rate to 0
baeuchlein on 15/12/2023 at 03:35
Concerning the "non power-of-two" textures, I am almost certain now that these are what is to blame for the texture problems.
I have seen problems like MeisterdiebderEchte described with two ancient graphics adapters, an ATI Radeon 9550 and a SiS 741 chipset graphics. Both are about twenty years old, but the result is exactly as MeisterdiebderEchte described: Graphics distortions in certain places. These places have in common that a non-power-of-two texture is in the line of sight from the player; real walls do block this line (meaning the problems are not there), while curtains and closed doors do not block the line as far as graphics problems are concerned. After I manually changed every non-power-of-two texture graphics in folders obj\txt, obj\txt16, and mesh\txt to a resolution that does conform to the "power-of-two" rule, I found no texture problem areas anymore. I have not played through the whole campaign with this TBP version so far, but have checked areas with texture problems several times and found no graphical glitches anymore.
Some interesting things I noted:
1. While the non-power-of-two textures ("NPOT textures"?) did cause the graphics problems, the extent of what happened varied between different hardware (perhaps due to the drivers, of course), between different viewing angles, and between whether one used the Direct3D 9 based or the DirectX 6 based display system (by setting or removing the "use_d3d_display" line in cam_ext.cfg). DirectX 6 meant enormous problems with the "white textures" sometimes spreading over the whole screen, while Direct3D 9 usually only had a white area where a NPOT texture was supposed to appear (and in rare cases depending on viewing angle, things like the frames of paintings affected were also white).
2. Due to using a very ancient machine (20 years old), I also experienced massive slowdowns whenever the texture problem appeared. They were gone with the corrected textures. (Complex sceneries, of course, still overwhelmed the ancient machine, but that's another thing, and mainly happened while having a wide angle view over the Cityscape.)
3. Most NPOT textures were paintings, but a few other were also NPOT, like the white circle with symbols on which the Stone Bastard is sitting. The circle graphics also caused slowdown and white textures, and "behaved" when changed from NPOT to POT dimensions.
4. When changing the graphics in IrfanView, changes to just one of the two borders of the graphics were frequent, often resulting in a distorted image in IrfanView, e.g., a formerly round moon was changed to an oval thing like a "football egg". However, when viewed in-game, the graphics appeared correctly. Thus, no correction for these distortions appears to be necessary. (Two paintings exhibited changed shapes in-game, but this was the case with the original TBP version on a non-affected more modern computer as well, thus I assume this has nothing to do with NPOT/POT and the correction/conversion.)
5. The FM "Whispers Below the Cobblestone" does indeed have the same texture problems, but this is not the same bug/problem as the one that was first found with the EP2 texture pack. The texture problems due to NPOT textures in "Whispers" appear only in Guldenberg's palace, and only with the paintings there. I checked this out the same way as I did with TBP - a "Whispers" version with NPOT textures changed to POT did give me no problems at Guldenberg's. I even think I spotted two paintings there that are also used (and affected) in TBP.
6. One notable exception from the "no NPOT graphics" rule in TBP is the carrying icons - these are mostly NPOT as well, but created no problems for me.
7. I checked whether mods were loaded, but the only one that appears to be installed is the one that replaces outdated script modules (NVScript.osm and the like) with newer ones. Looks like we can rule out mods as the problem source.
If Feuillade Industries wants to, I can upload "my" version of TBP for them, which might save them some work. On the other hand, I did not check which graphics conversion options would give best quality, as my ancient graphics hardware used for this test can't do much more than 640x480 graphics, meaning that output quality is bad anyway. Thus, F.I. would be well-advised to check their corrected graphics in-game in order to see whether they agree with that quality or think it too shoddy for the public eye.;)
Kerrle on 15/12/2023 at 04:12
Quote Posted by Grabski
I am playing on M1 Max, 32 Gb through Wine emulator (receding into bushes)
I know it is 32 bit, very old engine, but I've been emulating much more complex 32bit games without dropping frame rate to 0
Sure, but you can't really compare between engines. Dark is much improved with NewDark but it was still designed a very long time ago.
I also played via wine (proton), but on a standard PC running arch. I have 32 cores and an RTX card and you'll still see the occasional stutter in Thief. It generally resolves quickly, though.
sub-res on 15/12/2023 at 09:04
In regards to loot counts I think I actually prefer it this way, and the only mission where I actually had to go back and do another lap to actually meet the expert loot objective was mission 8 on my first playthrough. It's probably more of a personal thing but I think a lot of both OMs and FMs lose some of that magic once you find everything there is to find and do everything there is to do. There's something nice about going back and explore missions looking for something you missed previously, and experiencing the elation of finding new loot, areas or secrets.
chk772 on 15/12/2023 at 11:08
Quote Posted by Aja
I've never found all of the loot even in the OMs, and my tallies so far in TBP have been usually around 1000 short. I don't enjoy systematically scouring an entire level, so I probably won't ever get it all,
but I do kind of like the idea that it's there and that I might find it someday when I replay it.Do you though?
radogoal on 16/12/2023 at 09:34
Black Parade is a FM für Thief Gold as i Noticed.
But i can't find my old cd for thief Gold.
Where can i download the Gold Version and is it only availabe with steam?
DirkBogan on 16/12/2023 at 09:37
radogoal, Thief Gold is currently on sale at GOG.com (
https://www.gog.com/en/game/thief_gold) https://www.gog.com/en/game/thief_gold
This version does not require any patches like Tfix, it is ready to play Black Parade.
goldwell on 16/12/2023 at 11:37
Bravo! I tip my hat to you gentlemen for producing one of the best thief campaigns I have ever played.
This has all of the professional feel & creative quality of the original thief games, with the added benefit of knowledge derived from decades of discussion & reflection on the original games. It invoked in me the same child-like feeling I felt when I first entered the thief universe playing Thief: The Dark Project all those years ago. The sense of wonder, awe, curiosity and beauty I found in this campaign is like none other.
From the intriguing story to the endless levels inviting adventure and sparking my curiosity, the gigantic and gorgeous atmosphere oozing out of each level, the awesome (and sometimes hilarious) voice acting and exchanges, the unique (and downright cool and bizarre enemies), the high quality and creative briefing videos, all of it. I enjoyed every moment & I never wanted it to end.
Playing through this campaign was like indulging in a sumptuous, opulent feast, accompanied by the finest, exquisitely aged spirits, and making love to a woman of breathtaking beauty. In essence, it is an experience to be cherished, relished in its entirety, savoring each fleeting moment with fervent appreciation.
Chef's kiss!
MeisterdiebderEchte on 16/12/2023 at 19:33
Quote Posted by baeuchlein
Concerning the "non power-of-two" textures, I am almost certain now that these are what is to blame for the texture problems.
I have seen problems like MeisterdiebderEchte described with two ancient graphics adapters, an ATI Radeon 9550 and a SiS 741 chipset graphics. Both are about twenty years old, but the result is exactly as MeisterdiebderEchte described: Graphics distortions in certain places. These places have in common that a non-power-of-two texture is in the line of sight from the player; real walls do block this line (meaning the problems are not there), while curtains and closed doors do not block the line as far as graphics problems are concerned. After I manually changed every non-power-of-two texture graphics in folders
obj\txt,
obj\txt16, and
mesh\txt to a resolution that does conform to the "power-of-two" rule, I found no texture problem areas anymore. I have not played through the whole campaign with this TBP version so far, but have checked areas with texture problems several times and found no graphical glitches anymore.
Some interesting things I noted:
1. While the non-power-of-two textures ("NPOT textures"?) did cause the graphics problems, the extent of what happened varied between different hardware (perhaps due to the drivers, of course), between different viewing angles, and between whether one used the Direct3D 9 based or the DirectX 6 based display system (by setting or removing the "use_d3d_display" line in cam_ext.cfg). DirectX 6 meant enormous problems with the "white textures" sometimes spreading over the whole screen, while Direct3D 9 usually only had a white area where a NPOT texture was supposed to appear (and in rare cases depending on viewing angle, things like the frames of paintings affected were also white).
2. Due to using a very ancient machine (20 years old), I also experienced massive slowdowns whenever the texture problem appeared. They were gone with the corrected textures. (Complex sceneries, of course, still overwhelmed the ancient machine, but that's another thing, and mainly happened while having a wide angle view over the Cityscape.)
3. Most NPOT textures were paintings, but a few other were also NPOT, like the white circle with symbols on which the Stone Bastard is sitting. The circle graphics also caused slowdown and white textures, and "behaved" when changed from NPOT to POT dimensions.
4. When changing the graphics in IrfanView, changes to just one of the two borders of the graphics were frequent, often resulting in a distorted image in IrfanView, e.g., a formerly round moon was changed to an oval thing like a "football egg". However, when viewed in-game, the graphics appeared correctly. Thus, no correction for these distortions appears to be necessary. (Two paintings exhibited changed shapes in-game, but this was the case with the original TBP version on a non-affected more modern computer as well, thus I assume this has nothing to do with NPOT/POT and the correction/conversion.)
5. The FM "Whispers Below the Cobblestone" does indeed have the same texture problems, but this is
not the same bug/problem as the one that was first found with the EP2 texture pack. The texture problems due to NPOT textures in "Whispers" appear only in Guldenberg's palace, and only with the paintings there. I checked this out the same way as I did with TBP - a "Whispers" version with NPOT textures changed to POT did give me no problems at Guldenberg's. I even think I spotted two paintings there that are also used (and affected) in TBP.
6. One notable exception from the "no NPOT graphics" rule in TBP is the carrying icons - these are mostly NPOT as well, but created no problems for me.
7. I checked whether mods were loaded, but the only one that appears to be installed is the one that replaces outdated script modules (
NVScript.osm and the like) with newer ones. Looks like we can rule out mods as the problem source.
If Feuillade Industries wants to, I can upload "my" version of TBP for them, which might save them some work. On the other hand, I did not check which graphics conversion options would give best quality, as my ancient graphics hardware used for this test can't do much more than 640x480 graphics, meaning that output quality is bad anyway. Thus, F.I. would be well-advised to check their corrected graphics in-game in order to see whether they agree with that quality or think it too shoddy for the public eye.;)
Thanks a lot for this reply! I just sent you a pm.
Anarchic Fox on 17/12/2023 at 00:07
Quote Posted by skacky
Known issues:
- Due to the complexity of the missions, there can be cases where some NPCs might get stuck walking against walls. There is unfortunately not much that can be done about this.
While working on Mission X, I used the Dromed command to display pathfinding cells, and used this visualization to make numerous minute adjustments that reduced the number of cells and formed more orderly patterns, chiefly by aligning object boundaries. I did this in order to make the pathfinding database build less likely to crash, but it had the side benefit of helping the NPCs avoid getting stuck on walls. It's an immensely labor-intensive process, so I don't suggest actually doing it, but you might be happy to hear there's a solution.
