242 on 14/6/2016 at 09:21
Manwe, my condolences.
You're living in some extremally warped world. Or you're totally disinformed.
There was no coup in Ukraine, there were mass protests and escape of the former (heavily corrupted) President after he sold (literally) himself and the country to putinists discarding Association Agreement which was ready for signing,
it was his choice to escape. After he chose to escape there were re-elections (both Presidential and Parliamential) which were acknowledged by everyone. Why you along with your beloved putinists keep claiming it was instigated by CIA/USA/Obama/West etc etc., do you think Ukrainian people don't have their own will??
There was annexation of Crimea. It was annexation by military force. Plain and simple. Like Sudetes in 1939. Even if majority in Crimea and Sudetes supported Russia and Germany accordingly, it was totally unlawful military annexation in both cases. Not just Russia totally violated 1975 Helsinki Final Act (as a succession state of the USSR), but Russia also signed (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances) Budapest memorandum which was supposed to guarantee that it respects terriotorial integrity of Ukraine when the latter discarded nuclear weapons in the 90th.
I would like to read you when a part of your country is annexed, part occupied, and someone tries to justify aggressor.
USA did fight in Vietnam, yes. But they were helping South Vietnam in its fight against North Vietnam which was supported mainly by USSR and China. There would be peace and perhaps peaceful unification if NVA and Vietcong and their helpers from the USSR respected the Paris Peace Accords, North Vietnamese brutally violated them.
heywood on 14/6/2016 at 13:14
Quote Posted by 242
USA did fight in Vietnam, yes. But they were helping South Vietnam in its fight against North Vietnam which was supported mainly by USSR and China. There would be peace and perhaps peaceful unification if NVA and Vietcong and their helpers from the USSR respected the Paris Peace Accords, North Vietnamese brutally violated them.
At the risk of a derail, I want to point out that it was the South that broke the peace accords (held in Geneva, not Paris).
There wasn't supposed to be a divided Vietnam. After the Japanese were defeated, France wanted their colony back and fought the Viet Minh for a decade before losing a major battle at Dien Bien Phu. At the following Geneva peace talks in 1954, the French agreed to withdraw from the country leaving it temporarily split between Ho Che Minh in the North and the old puppet emperor Bao Dai in the South.
The Geneva Accord stipulated a national election to unify the country within 2 years. Until the election, communist military forces were to go to the North, anti-communist military forces were to go to the South, and civilians could pick where they wanted to live. This was designed by both sides to be a big propaganda battle. The Vietnamese Communists were quietly recruiting in the South while French & US intelligence dropped leaflets in the North. The South was initially ahead in the propaganda war, with a lot of civilians moving from North to South.
That election never happened because while Bao Dai was off living in France his nationalist Prime Minister Diem took control of the government in the South and orchestrated a rigged election that overthrew Bao Dai. Diem went on to declare the independent state Republic of Vietnam in South Vietnam and reneged on the Geneva Accords by refusing national elections. Diem consolidated power and became an autocrat. He was also a staunch Catholic and promoted dominance of Catholics over the majority Buddhists, leading to mass protests which he brutally cracked down on. As a result, the U.S. turned on Diem and the CIA orchestrated a military coup to get rid of him. That is how the U.S. inherited the problem of South Vietnam.
heywood on 14/6/2016 at 14:17
The war was already over by then. That worthless agreement was just so the US could hold up a piece of paper as they walked away. It didn't even require the NVA to withdraw from South Vietnam. The Saigon government wasn't even informed of the secret negotiations between the US and North Vietnam, and did not agree with the result, but were forced by the US to sign on otherwise the US would withdraw support. Which the US did anyway. The Viet Cong and Thieu's government never stopped fighting, the Paris agreement was really just a cease fire between the US forces and NVA. Basically, the US abandoned the war when it became unwinnable.
242 on 14/6/2016 at 15:54
Basically, it was an answer to Manwe who seemed to blame the USA only for the war in Vietnam, even though it's clear that North Vietman was likewise manupulated, advised and helped by the USSR and China, North Vietnamese "Politburo" was totally modeled after the original in the USSR, it wasn't natural Vietnamese model of government. The USA tried to help South Vietman, and basically betrayed it in the end, that's it.
Also, answering to Manwe on this: "The US has been eating away at the Russian sphere of influence for years": We are not puppets, and I personally (and I believe majority of Ukrainians too) don't want to be in the "sphere of influence". Does it make us the agents of CIA or something like that?
Shadowhide on 14/6/2016 at 19:27
Quote Posted by 242
Manwe, my condolences.
You're living in some extremally warped world. Or you're totally disinformed.
There was no coup in Ukraine, there were mass protests and escape of the former (heavily corrupted) President after he sold (literally) himself and the country to putinists discarding Association Agreement which was ready for signing,
it was his choice to escape. After he chose to escape there were re-elections (both Presidential and Parliamential) which were acknowledged by everyone. Why you along with your beloved putinists keep claiming it was instigated by CIA/USA/Obama/West etc etc., do you think Ukrainian people don't have their own will??
There was annexation of Crimea. It was annexation by military force. Plain and simple. Like Sudetes in 1939. Even if majority in Crimea and Sudetes supported Russia and Germany accordingly, it was totally unlawful military annexation in both cases. Not just Russia totally violated 1975 Helsinki Final Act (as a succession state of the USSR), but Russia also signed (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances) Budapest memorandum which was supposed to guarantee that it respects terriotorial integrity of Ukraine when the latter discarded nuclear weapons in the 90th.
I would like to read you when a part of your country is annexed, part occupied, and someone tries to justify aggressor.
If there was no coup in Ukraine then who funded a tent city,food supply ect.? Idiots jumping around screaming neo-fascist slogans were only a paid puppets and/or idiots.Period.Stop misguiding people, 42.Is your new president and the rest of goverment any better then the old one ?
Disclaimer: I dont like today's Russia, it's corrupt and pretty much fucked.
Crimea return(not annexation) was a right move and was indeed a victory,rest of Ukraine should have been "brought back" aswell since Ukraine was never a sovereign country (I can say that as an ex ukrainian pasport owner) and there was never such nation as "ukrainians",Ukraine's populated by the same Russian people.
Slasher on 15/6/2016 at 00:56
Just write down Cthulu on the ballot, even if you're not American. His running mate is gaben for crying out loud. Yrg'narlth'ogggggg'blyathrip!
242 on 16/6/2016 at 09:13
Quote Posted by Shadowhide
If there was no coup in Ukraine then who funded a tent city,food supply ect.? Idiots jumping around screaming neo-fascist slogans were only a paid puppets and/or idiots.Period.Stop misguiding people, 42.Is your new president and the rest of goverment any better then the old one ?
Disclaimer: I dont like today's Russia, it's corrupt and pretty much fucked.
Crimea return(not annexation) was a right move and was indeed a victory,rest of Ukraine should have been "brought back" aswell since Ukraine was never a sovereign country (I can say that as an ex ukrainian pasport owner) and there was never such nation as "ukrainians",Ukraine's populated by the same Russian people.
Go out. Imperialist neo nazi scum.
For others: Do you see with whom we have to deal here in Ukraine, who are our neighbours? I assure you, majority of Russians think like this idiot. They kill our soldiers literally everyday for 2 years already. Now in average it's 1-5 killed plus 5-15 wounded every day, on Ukrainian turf.
heywood on 16/6/2016 at 12:18
I don't envy your situation.
Manwe alluded to NATO expansion being a factor in Russia's behavior, but failed to note that the nations of Eastern Europe did not fall under Russia's sphere of influence voluntarily; they were captured by the Russian military during WWII or invaded thereafter. Some were annexed into the Soviet Union proper and some were brought to heel under the Warsaw Pact by military force e.g. Czechoslovakia. So it's no wonder that after the breakup of the Soviet Union, most of these countries went running away from Russia as fact as they could.
Back when the Soviet Union fell, I thought NATO would be dissolved and it probably should have been. At one point it was the primary means of holding Western Europe together and agreeing on a cohesive foreign policy, but the EU has taken over that role.
But supposing NATO did not exist, or were disbanded overnight, I don't think that would make Russian foreign policy any less aggressive toward former USSR and WP nations. As he withdraws from relationships with the West, Putin is looking for allies. It looks to me like he's forcibly splitting up Ukraine so he can make an ally out of the pro-Russian half. And if he really wants to do it badly enough, it seems like it's going to happen.
icemann on 16/6/2016 at 12:42
I've not heard a thing about the situation in Ukraine since last year. Media just stopped reporting on it entirely. Has there been any change in that time? Russians controlling less or more territory?
