2008 TTLG Mock presidential election. Poll included

Stereoprismatic on 1/11/2008 at 19:38

Quote Posted by DDL

So we're onto "I have zero experience of how things work in other countries, so I am therefore entirely justified in suggesting that any and all of those things would be BAD when used in America"?

I never said it "would be" bad. The socialist policies *now in effect* in America, which have been in effect since the days of FDR, do not work. Private funding through charities for the same uses would be much more beneficial.

Quote Posted by DDL

To be honest, I always found it astounding that a nation as advanced as the US had no real form of universal healthcare. Medical aid should be a right, not a privilege. Sure, the downside is that you have to pay for that right, but only if you are able to. And I don't really see any problem with that. It's better than "letting people die coz they're poor, lol".

I don't think America's health care as it exists is good. The HMOs and the Big Pharma have created a society where doctors are essentially pill-pushers; the more prescriptions they write out, the more they get paid. That also has to do with the gradual socialization of it all. The problem is government interference.

I don't believe health care is a right. If the economy worked as it did in the late 19th century (sans the pro-mercantilist policies the US pushed after the War Between the States), you'd be able to pay for a routine checkup out of pocket. Today, thanks to devaluation of the dollar via inflation and government regulation, it has become a necessity for many to use health insurance for normal checkups, which makes no sense to me. Health insurance should be like car insurance; you pay into it so that if a really bad thing happens to you, you're covered.

If the US institutes universal (socialized) health care, we will run into the same problem again; you're robbing Dave to pay Bob. Why not let people contribute voluntarily to private programs that will help out poorer people who can't afford their regular visits? It would be a lot more efficient than the governmental red tape that so many have to go through even as health care exists today.

"Lowering the Cost of Health Care" by Ron Paul, M.D.-
(http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul339.html)

"Socialized Health Care Is Not Cheaper Than Free Market Healthcare" by Mark R. Crovelli-
(http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/crovelli7.html)

howie on 1/11/2008 at 19:56

My brother has become a "Jesus freak" extreme Right Wing Republican Conservative - he believes all the stuff that the extreme republican campaign war machine is pumping out. I have always been a christian conservative democrat but really was not sure on who to vote for with all the stuff that has been floating around both canidates. I missed the Obama commerial that was broadcast a week ago, so I watched it today. I was really surprized by the worlds comments for Obama. I was just wondering how the rest of the world, on this forum, feels about Obama after watching the video?

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtREqAmLsoA)

Ghostly Apparition on 1/11/2008 at 21:12

Quote Posted by Stereoprismatic

Example: I get money pulled from my paycheck into that vacuous Social Security "fund". I'm likely to never see a penny of that in retirement. I think people my age (mid 20s) need to be able to pull out of that system and be able to save up for themselves as opposed to relying on the state to provide. My granddad is basically living off social security, and he's not having a great time of it. It's a program that just does not benefit people efficiently.

In this sense, I don't see very much difference in communism and socialism. They are both political constructs that force me to pay for a service I may not ever use. Voluntary contribution is replaced with involuntary submission.

Plus, you just have to read the communist manifesto to see what's being implemented here. Karl Marx even advocated the idea of the income tax and central banking! And look what that's done to the country. We just need more common sense and individual responsibility.

Noone ever told your granddad he couldn't save for retirement himself, social security is a safety net for those who don't make enough money to invest for example. The fact that your granddad is living off social security is an argument for it not against it. Where would he be without it? In your world he wouldn't be surviving at all. Or he saved all his money for retirement as you suggest and put it in the stock market. A year or two ago he would have been feeling all set like a lot of people were, who now find all there money went down the rat hole with the rest of wall street in the latest collapse. Nice try. But the privatization of social safety nets is a done idea now.

DDL on 1/11/2008 at 22:24

Quote Posted by Stereoprismatic

I don't believe health care is a right. If the economy worked as it did in the late 19th century (sans the pro-mercantilist policies the US pushed after the War Between the States), you'd be able to pay for a routine checkup out of pocket. Today, thanks to devaluation of the dollar via inflation and government regulation, it has become a necessity for many to use health insurance for normal checkups, which makes no sense to me. Health insurance should be like car insurance; you pay into it so that if a really bad thing happens to you, you're covered.

See, I'm not sure you understand how universal health care even works. The idea is "if you have a medical problem, you can get it treated, for free".

That's it. Your argument, in fact, appears to be in favour of nationalised healthcare. Ultimately, paying additional tax to support a national health care system....is exactly the same as paying health insurance, only everyone benefits.

Stereoprismatic on 1/11/2008 at 22:45

Quote Posted by DDL

See, I'm not sure you understand how universal health care even works. The idea is "if you have a medical problem, you can get it treated, for free".

And I'm not sure you understand that there is no free lunch. Nothing is free. Everything has a cost and a value associated with it.

Quote Posted by DDL

That's it. Your argument, in fact, appears to be in favour of nationalised healthcare. Ultimately, paying additional tax to support a national health care system....is exactly the same as paying health insurance, only everyone benefits.

The free market handles anything better than government can. This has been proven time and time again. Paying the government for health care is not the same as paying a private health insurance company, because when you're taxed for it, government is providing the service. The reason costs are so high right now is the government regulation and intervention. Government health care results in less incentive for doctors to do a good job, because they're making much less on government payroll than they would in the private sector.

If you want nationalized health care, look at the VA hospitals. There's your state-run health care. And it would be the same way nationally if such a measure was taken.

There are people who will go to India from the US to have a medical procedure done over there simply because it is cheaper than here, even including flight costs. Something is seriously wrong with that. But socialization will not help anything, and likely make it worse. I'd say, free up the markets, get the government regulation out, and prices will drop.

"Socialized Medicine in a Wealthy Country" by Lew Rockwell-
(http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/socialized-medicine.html)

"America's Socialized Health Care" by Lawrence Wilson, M.D.-
(http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/wilson-l1.html)

jay pettitt on 1/11/2008 at 22:46

Jeebus - Politics is a social science: it doesn't follow that politics is therefore socialism. Neither McCain or Obama are advocating a Marxist or Socialist style government or economy. They are advocating a mixed private/public sector economy. It's a different thing entirely.

I was talking to someone today at a farmers market and she told me (and I doubt she's on the ball even on this specific) that she's allowed up to 20% leeway on the quantities on the nutritional information on her baby food "I could write 1g fat on the back and there could actually be 20g in it, that's no good' she tells me, sneering at the powers that be for allowing this madness. I really hope when the new world order take over they encourage adult education. Stupid really isn't an attractive quality in a human being and it's not hard to go and do an evening course in maths, economics, politics or whatever.

Quote:

The free market handles anything better than government can

No it don't. Free, private markets handle public goods spectacularly badly.

D'Juhn Keep on 1/11/2008 at 23:34

The Illuminati exist and have influence in most every high office and media outlet on earth, though I don't believe they are the only ones. Every society has a certain ambitious group of people who manifest their influence in certain ways. The Freemasons, Skull & Bones, the Bilderberg Group, The Council on Foreign Relations, The Trilateral Commission... all of these things exist and obviously have vast influence on governmental policy, given their membership. Collectively, I and others call it the New World Order

SD on 1/11/2008 at 23:43

Quote Posted by Stereoprismatic

If you want nationalized health care, look at the VA hospitals. There's your state-run health care. And it would be the same way nationally if such a measure was taken.

The Veterans Health Administration is the best medical system in the USA. So what's the problem?

Your dogmatic attachment to the free market is difficult to understand. Some things the free market does well. Some things it does badly. Healthcare is one of those things it does really fucking abysmally.

BEAR on 2/11/2008 at 00:20

Quote Posted by Stereoprismatic

If you want nationalized health care, look at the VA hospitals. There's your state-run health care. And it would be the same way nationally if such a measure was taken.

My father is a disabled vietnam veteran, and he's had nothing but good things to say about his VA health care. In the past it has been less than good, but his descriptions of the care he gets is on par with the best stories I hear about national healthcare from the UK or France.

Granted, its not likely to be like that everywhere, but if it is that good here it is that good somewhere else.

Do you know something we don't or did you just watch born on the 4th of july and assumed things were still like that?

Ghostly Apparition on 2/11/2008 at 01:47

Quote Posted by Stereoprismatic

"Free up the markets, get the government regulation out"
"The free market handles anything better than government can"
This is the line you're actually going to stick with eh? After the economic meltdown we've seen over the last months, I'm surprised you can say that with a straight face.
Well, its been proven wrong time and time again and here is the conservative
economic guru stating as much that he was wrong! Got that? Get it through your thick skull, deregulation is EPIC FAIL!
(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/business/economy/24panel.html?hp)

Read that. Its demonstrative proof the free markets and deregulation doesn't work. Greenspan says so himself.