2008 TTLG Mock presidential election. Poll included - by io organic industrialism
BEAR on 1/11/2008 at 16:52
No, it isn't.
I'm just amazed again by the republicans abilities to pull the wool over the eyes of working class americans with this "spread the wealth" business. They have managed to convince them that their wealth around, when Obama is proposing to give them more money.
Its just a joke, the republicans have nothing left and they know it, so they are trying this crap. It will only be effective against people ignorant enough to vote for McCain in the first place.
Stereoprismatic on 1/11/2008 at 17:08
As I said before, McCain or Obama, it doesn't matter. They both support the warfare and welfare states.
The Marxist influence is there with Obama just as much as the neofascist influence is with McCain. There isn't much difference at all between those systems. The problem is that socialism has been creeping into America for decades, ever since FDR and his New Deal, and even before that. This acceptance of inefficient programs like medicare and social security has allowed our Dear Leaders to embrace it for political gain. People voting for the establishment tools just seem to want free stuff from the government, not realizing that government cannot create wealth, it can only reapportion it. There is no free lunch.
The only way socialism/communism could ever work is if man's nature was changed fundamentally, to the point that the leaders would deal fairly. But that's not going to happen. History has proven that it's not going to happen. The collapse of the Soviet Union proves it. The Cold War was kind of a farce to some extent, because the USSR was going to collapse eventually anyway. I'd rather follow the Rule of Law than the Rule of Some Guy. It's more impartial and allows more freedom from the ground up.
And no, I wasn't trying to spark a debate over Revelation. Never required a response to that, I was just sharing, really. The Cicero quote was not meant to "demean" anyone. I just meant to point out the similarities between what happened with Rome and what's happening with America. It'll be bread and circuses until the end, when our currency collapses.
Thirith on 1/11/2008 at 17:18
So what about all the European countries where medicare and social security work, and have been working for decades, to a fairly large extent? Are they all mirages?
SD on 1/11/2008 at 17:20
Quote Posted by Stereoprismatic
guff
Dear sweet Jesus. If you won't even acknowledge the difference between the totalitarianism of COMMUNISM which severely inhibits the ability of private individuals and the private sector to generate or possess any wealth at all, and the exceedingly modest redistribution of wealth we have in liberal western democracies that not only barely inhibits privately-owned wealth, but actively stimulates it, then there's no way anyone can have a serious intellectual debate with you. Things are not black and white, and taxing the rich a little more to ease the lives of the poor is not in the same ballpark as Marxism. It's not even on the same continent.
Just because I know you like quotes, here's one from the great free market economist and philosopher Adam Smith:
Quote:
It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion
There are debates to be had about what those proportions should be, but in and of themselves, redistributive measures are not a bad thing.
heywood on 1/11/2008 at 17:34
Quote Posted by BEAR
I'm just
amazed again by the republicans abilities to pull the wool over the eyes of working class americans with this "spread the wealth" business. They have managed to convince them that
their wealth around, when Obama is proposing to
give them more money.
I suspect working class Americans are a lot more worried about their jobs than their taxes. If McCain can convince them his plan is better for job creation, that probably means more to them than a $1k tax cut.
Also, don't underestimate the ability of working class Americans to vote for what they think is fair rather than just what benefits them.
The Democrat approach should be to convince people that the rich have disproportionally benefited from economic growth, and thus they should be obligated to pay a disproportionate share of the taxes. That is, they need to justify a more progressive tax distribution based on the widening income gap.
Quote Posted by SD
There are debates to be had about what those proportions should be, but in and of themselves, redistributive measures are not a bad thing.
You just fell into the same trap Democrats routinely fall into. Don't call a progressive tax a redistributive measure. It really isn't.
Americans in general don't think that redistributing or punitively confiscating wealth is fair. Democrats would be better off noting things like CEO pay has gone up X hundred percent in the last 20 years, so why hasn't their share of the tax burden gone up similarly? Democrats will never win playing the old "the rich are stealing your money and I'm going to steal it back" class warfare game.
Gingerbread Man on 1/11/2008 at 17:36
Quote Posted by Stereoprismatic
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
There's a bit of a gap between McCarthy-esque lunacy and universal health care.
Well... There is for most of us.
Stereoprismatic on 1/11/2008 at 17:48
Quote:
So what about all the European countries where medicare and social security work, and have been working for decades, to a fairly large extent? Are they all mirages?
The reason they "work" (Like in Canada where one has to wait months for sometimes urgently needed care) is because those countries tax their citizens like crazy. I've only ever lived in the US, I don't have any personal experience with any other country, so I'd say if it works in other countries, more power to them. I just don't think socialism works here at all. There is a reason people used to risk life and limb to come to this country. America was built on sound money and free markets. That's why it came to be the "envy of the world", which it ain't so much these days.
Quote:
Things are not black and white, and taxing the rich a little more to ease the lives of the poor is not in the same ballpark as Marxism. It's not even on the same continent.
The question then becomes, is it moral to rob someone at gunpoint? Because that's exactly what the state does when it taxes you for a service you may not need or use.
Example: I get money pulled from my paycheck into that vacuous Social Security "fund". I'm likely to never see a penny of that in retirement. I think people my age (mid 20s) need to be able to pull out of that system and be able to save up for themselves as opposed to relying on the state to provide. My granddad is basically living off social security, and he's not having a great time of it. It's a program that just does not benefit people efficiently.
In this sense, I don't see very much difference in communism and socialism. They are both political constructs that force me to pay for a service I may not ever use. Voluntary contribution is replaced with involuntary submission.
Plus, you just have to read the communist manifesto to see what's being implemented here. Karl Marx even advocated the idea of the income tax and central banking! And look what that's done to the country. We just need more common sense and individual responsibility.
DDL on 1/11/2008 at 18:01
So we're onto "I have zero experience of how things work in other countries, so I am therefore entirely justified in suggesting that any and all of those things would be BAD when used in America"?
I'm not sure that argument makes any sense.
To be honest, I always found it astounding that a nation as advanced as the US had no real form of universal healthcare. Medical aid should be a right, not a privilege. Sure, the downside is that you have to pay for that right, but only if you are able to. And I don't really see any problem with that. It's better than "letting people die coz they're poor, lol".
Muzman on 1/11/2008 at 18:02
I Know! No one ever heard of income tax and central banking before Marx. Clearly these are Marxist things
Fringe on 1/11/2008 at 18:14
Quote Posted by Stereoprismatic
We just need more common sense
Does common sense include basing one's political ideology around the Book of Revelation and hunting the illuminati?
