20% of christians say: Ok to use inquisitions and witch trials to defend chrisianity. - by Apostolus
Swiss Mercenary on 24/5/2007 at 08:58
Quote Posted by Kolya
Unless some however questionable authority tells them it's alright. Then they happily oblige.
The experiment requires that you continue.
scumble on 25/5/2007 at 09:46
Quote Posted by fett
but suicide bombings are an attempt to gain control.
I don't really think suicide bombing is ever intended to "gain control for Islam". The Islamic element is there because there is a lot of rhetoric flying about, but in practical terms, there are more specific goals of "getting the occupiers out of Iraq", say. Not all people in the Muslim world are actually hostile to "the west" as such. The Saudis aren't as they're happy to take the oil money.
It's not so much "gain control" as a tactic to cause damage and demoralisation against occupying forces or entities. Religion may help in the suicidal enthusiasm department, but I'm not convinced there's anything like a real co-ordinated plan to kill all the infidels.
I suppose ultimately I don't think "defending religion" as such is a genuine motivation, terrorist acts are generally driven by something specific if you look hard enough.
On the other side, the Inquisition isn't so much defending religion as trying to defend an established power - the Catholic Church.
I can't actually think of any organisation like the catholic church in the Muslim world. I know there are sects of Islam, but there doesn't seem to be anything with a well known recognised head figure, such as the Pope.
Fingernail on 25/5/2007 at 11:39
It's much more fragmented than Catholicism, but on the other hand, that's a bit of a strange comparison since Christianity as a whole is just as fragmented with Catholicism being a major sect within it.
Grand Ayatollah Ali al Sistani is probably quite close to a Pope-like figure, at least within the Shia community. But he probably has little importance to many Muslims, just as the Pope has little importance to many Protestants.
Papy on 25/5/2007 at 12:17
Quote Posted by scumble
Religion may help in the suicidal enthusiasm department
I think what really helps in the suicidal department is a desire for vengeance mixed with a feeling of despair. The stories we hear from Iraq, Afghanistan or other parts of the world are really sad. I know that if I was in Iraq and I lost everyone I loved, like far too many people there, I would probably blow myself up just to try to kill a few bastards.
fett on 25/5/2007 at 12:51
Quote Posted by scumble
I don't really think suicide bombing is ever intended to "gain control for Islam". The Islamic element is there because there is a lot of rhetoric flying about, but in practical terms, there are more specific goals of "getting the occupiers out of Iraq", say. Not all people in the Muslim world are actually hostile to "the west" as such. The Saudis aren't as they're happy to take the oil money.
It's not so much "gain control" as a tactic to cause damage and demoralisation against occupying forces or entities. Religion may help in the suicidal enthusiasm department, but I'm not convinced there's anything like a real co-ordinated plan to kill all the infidels.
I suppose ultimately I don't think "defending religion" as such is a genuine motivation, terrorist acts are generally driven by something specific if you look hard enough.
On the other side, the Inquisition isn't so much defending religion as trying to defend an established power - the Catholic Church.
I can't actually think of any organisation like the catholic church in the Muslim world. I know there are sects of Islam, but there doesn't seem to be anything with a well known recognised head figure, such as the Pope.
Right - I probably should have worded that, "to gain control of their homeland/country/region etc." though there are segments of radical Islam that see terrorism as a way to help Islam gain world domination. Obviously that's not the immediate goal of individual bombers, but I do think it's part of the big picture that is painted for them oftentimes by those in control.
Islam doesn't have anything like the Catholic Church but neither does Christianity anymore. At the time of the Inquisition, Christianity pretty much was the Catholic Church - the terms were synonymous. The world 'Catholic' simply means 'universal' and was morphed to delineate between Protestants (protesters - Martin Luther, etc.) and non-Protestants post Reformation. Until that time, anyone who was a 'christian' was automatically considered Catholic. In all, the Inquisition was still a play to maintain control, but not just of a particular region or against a particular enemy - it was carried out 1) for greed 2) supposedly to protect the theological integrity of the apostles teaching (of which it managed to do in the beginning, but failed miserably by the end).
Chimpy Chompy on 25/5/2007 at 19:52
Quote Posted by fett
At the time of the Inquisition, Christianity pretty much was the Catholic Church - the terms were synonymous. The world 'Catholic' simply means 'universal' and was morphed to delineate between Protestants (protesters - Martin Luther, etc.) and non-Protestants post Reformation. Until that time, anyone who was a 'christian' was automatically considered Catholic.
I don't know how much difference this makes to you point, given that it probably still applies in practical terms to western Europe at least, but hadn't the eastern orthodox church split off centuries before?
Thief13x on 25/5/2007 at 20:05
Quote:
The poll also found that most Muslim Americans are Democrats or lean that way
Quote:
Some younger U.S. Muslims
say suicide bombings could be justified
yeah yeah the dems also said we would have an Iraq withdrawl date if we elected them to congress...oh sna
fett on 25/5/2007 at 20:11
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
I don't know how much difference this makes to you point, given that it probably still applies in practical terms to western Europe at least, but hadn't the eastern orthodox church split off centuries before?
Oops! Yeah it sure did, but the number and location of the people involved in that 'first reformation' were proportionately insignificant at first. They were fairly isolated from the general goings-on of the Catholic church, and IIRC there was quite a bit of ambivalence toward them. The main reason for the split had to do with the significance of icons and rituals and the EO was much more fervent about their importance than the Catholic church, though at the time it would have been the pot calling the kettle black since the Catholic church was pretty overboard about those very things. IIRC some of the writings from that period indicate that the Catholic Church thought they were a little wacky, but not exactly heretical (kind of like how mainstream Protestantism treats the Seventh Day Adventist denomination right now) - kind of a step-child relationship from the CC's view, whereas the EO viewed it as a complete severing of ties. The differences grew more pronounced as time passed obviously, but early on the CC didn't view the EOC as a threat theologically or politically.
Taffer on 26/5/2007 at 06:19
Quote Posted by Swiss Mercenary
The experiment requires that you continue.
Best social psychology quote ever. :cool:
