D'Juhn Keep on 22/10/2005 at 20:29
Holy shit :o
I hope you got his autograph tatooed on you somewhere
D'Juhn Keep on 23/10/2005 at 03:34
Holy crap. I tried to pace myself, I really did. But here I am at 0400, having just read it for the best part of the last 2 days. :( It's fantastic. And absolutely the bleakest book so far. Winter is truly coming.
[spoiler]The Samwell chapters were heartbreaking at places. It was when you realised Aemon was becoming senile and dying and Dareon was shouting and getting drunk all the time and they had no money for food or wood... :(
However, did Dareon have it coming? He's always claimed he's innocent of any crime, so for a start he'd be on the Wall injustly and secondly goddamn, who wouldn't have bailed and tried to make a life for themselves in Braavos rather than go back to the Wall?
Jaqen now has a key to go anywhere in the Citadel. This could be an awesome plot point and one that shouldn't be underestimated. Especially given the obsidian candles and prophecies and stuff.
Speaking of which, the fucking Maestars are evil and deliberately killed off the goddamn dragons! They've got a secret agenda to rid the world of magic so their science can rule supreme!
And now there's a militant order of the Seven!
And Doran has been revealed as a goddamn long-term masterplanner who wants to marry his son to Dany so he can rebel against the Lannisters!
The whole plot with Cersai vs Margaery and now with the Faith taking a hand is awesome.
I started off just writing this clinically but the sheer amount of FUCKING HELL moments has got me way too excited. Oh yes. UNDEAD FUCKING GREGOR.
One thing that sort of annoyed me was GRRM spoiling Davos' non-death! He says he's been beheaded, which I didn't really believe anyway but then says that the next book will have Davos chapters. gg grrm.
My favourite piece of writing in the book is about the 'broken men'. Really great stuff, that. For sheer awesomeness, THAT Cersei chapter takes some beating: BAM Qyburn needs armour that no man can bear. BAM Bronn shows his qualité once again. BAM Cersei on Merryweather lesbian action, with bonus insight into Cersei and Robert's marriage. Goddamn.[/spoiler]
Scots Taffer on 25/11/2005 at 18:34
No US folk read this yet?
Anyway, I'm nearing the very end and last night skipped ahead one chapter to read Brienne's final chapter of the book. I was very saddened and disappointed to see her die, it felt like the whole of her plot thread was a red herring just to fill up the space and have "someone" come across the undead kru. Overall, I'm enjoying this one and there is real depth of character in some instances - in particular, loving Jaime's turnaround into a potential Goldenhand the Just, his nightly spars with Ilyn are revealing so much, while at the same time there's still the bastard that everybody knows and loathes underneath there, except somehow the bastard hates the bastard inside himself! Cersei's downfall is becoming terribly predictable and the lesbian action is a pretty hamfisted way of piling it up, personally I'm enjoying the completely egocentric view her actions while wreaking complete havok (giving the Seven their Swords, putting the Merryweathers into power, throwing people over to Qyburn for nothing, allowing herself to be a whore with Kettleback to put her schemes into motion, threatening Pycelle, etc)..
However, the book often feels like it's lacking a narrative drive. It's becoming a bit unanchored and the less clear it is where the plot's going, the more it seems GRRM is meandering with his characters by pulling out a lot of backstory stuff, which also seems largely irrelevant by the developments that occur- Cersei's valonquar and all of Brienne's backstory only to have Cersei fuck it up for herself and Brienne get abruptly and pointlessly murdered.
There's the potential for this to become too mired in its own mythos. GRRM can either keep this shit tight for the following books, or he can slip into expounding upon stuff that pops into his head or he likes the sound of until he has over an extra book of material - also, if he keeps butchering his main characters in the style of this book, sooner or later, it's going to be an array of side-characters in control who aren't anywhere near solid enough to focus on.
Paz on 25/11/2005 at 20:25
Awesome, we're talking about this now! FUCK ME, IT'S THE SPOILER SHOW:
[SPOILER]Ok .. ok .. so much to say, so much to do.
Scots, dude - no way is Brienne going to be dead. I'm not buying that crap from Martin this time! In fact, I don't think any 'major' guys died in this episode at all. Her initial few chapters were pretty dull, but it got better (such as the 'broken men' part Iggles was lauding). GEORGE R R MARXIST popped up a few times in this book, I felt - which obviously was fine by me!
Cersei's prophecy backstory will surely appear important when Jaime inevitably kills her; but I guess it was all a bit too Lady MacBeth for comfort at times.
Speaking of people who AREN'T DEAD OR DYING .. Loras is clearly still around. My belief is that those guys didn't attack Dragonstone, much less take it. Despite the fact that people throughout the realm get periodic raven updates, none of them ever hear about Dragonstone falling. Indeed, Littlefinger even explicitely states that it still holds for Stannis toward the end. Of course, maybe this is all DOUBLE BLUFF, but I don't think Mr Aurane Waters went on a jolly jaunt at all. Which leads us to wonder what Loras is doing, if he's not all boiled and that?
Favourite moment - Prince Doran revealing his masterplan. Excellent twist which I didn't even have a sniff of beforehand![/SPOILER]
Yowser! More rambling as this thread develops.
D'Juhn Keep on 25/11/2005 at 23:53
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
THERE ARE SPOILERS IN THIS POST
WITHOUT SPOILER TAGS
I'M NOT KIDDING
To address Scots' plot concerns, you have to take into account what this book is. GRRM's original plan was to not have this book and just have aDwD 5 years past aSoS. He then realised that this just couldn't happen without a fuckload of flashbacks from every character. Given that, he wrote this book. So if you think about it, this is more about the characters than the plot. I'm pretty sure the next few books in the series will be more like the first 3.
Also, Brienne's clearly not dead. How can you even think that given she "called out a word" just before being hung? "Sword" or "Arya" are the best guesses I've seen so far. Also, Sandor's not dead either, he's the lame guy on the Silent Isle :cool:
Zygoptera on 26/11/2005 at 01:31
Minor spoilers uncovered only, hopefully.
The biggest problem was that the first third of the book was almost entirely disposable and read more like Robert Jordan (sans braid tugging, sniffing and extensive clothing descriptions, thankfully)- most of that could very easily have been dealt with by a few paragraphs of flash back, even in the book as it stands- mainly the 5(?) Jaime/Cersei chapters set before Tywin left and Big B going off with Nimble Dick to achieve, well, not much really. Nearly all the high points were clustered towards the final third, and having such an unsympathetic character have a third of the chapters was probably a mistake. Still a more than worthwhile read, but nowhere near as good as other books in the series.
A few extra comments, spoilers obviously.
Jaime v. Blackfish/ Freys/ Edmure; and Genna, who is clearly Tywin's sister
Jaime thinking about strangling Jeyne's mum(?) with a necklace. Not for the obvious reason.
Brienne v. Pyg/ Timeon/ Shagwell, and v. Rorge/ Biter later
The High Septon's 'No', and what followed.
Sam trying to disassemble Dareon, and finding a use for his mast, even though predictable.
Arianne's little plan falling apart spectacularly
'Fire and Blood'
All excellent.
I have the same doubts as Paz about Loras, for the same reasons. I also doubt that Davos is dead, or if he is it is not in the manner stated. Manderly has good reason to hate the Boltons (fighting over the Hornwood lands) and the Freys, and if he has either Rickon or Glover/Mormont with him he knows there's still a legit Stark around. I'd also suspect Bolton snr may die in the next book courtesy of the bog devils, something about the description Vic gave of their poison seems... poetic. Brienne and Sandor not dead, Cersei to last a while longer (as lady of Casterly Rock only), and be killed by Jaime (of course).
Tocky on 26/11/2005 at 04:15
Yes. All that here at this crossing lord Hatchethead defeated the pollywog men who were kin to his wifes second cousins squire with a dead cat and thus it became custom to swing cats by the tail until someone lost an eye got on my nerves. The ironborn saga in particular was devoid of the sort of cliffhanger chapters I had become accustomed to. It was a drawn out setup which feinted poorly at intrigue IMO.
Most of the new characters seemed a tad lackluster. But then my opinion may be colored by the lack or smattering of some of my favorite characters. Or maybe the point was to string the obvious ones out such that the otherwise tedious developement of thier characters was more heightened. Who doesn't want to see Samwell turn into heman wizzard and beat his fathers ass? It wont happen of course. RR is more subtle and... Jesus is he milking it.
What one word would make them cut Briennes rope? Uncle? Ollyoxenfree? She aint dead. Yeah. I'll buy the next one. The bastard. I hope the next isn't weeks behind the Brit release too.
Jonesy on 26/11/2005 at 04:29
This book is more backstory, I've found. It's just to get us itching for Dragons. Still a fan-fucking-tastic read, though.
I think he said something on his website like "Better two books with all the characters than one book with half."
thefonz on 26/11/2005 at 10:29
Possible things [spoiler]Brienne shouts while being hung:[/spoiler]
[SPOILER]Jaime! (my favourite theory)
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!
Robb!
Ned!
Catelyn!
Stark!
Boobies!
OMGTEHZOMBIEEEE!
Eugh!
Snap!
KKKKKKILLINGSPREE!
[/SPOILER]
Insofar as Loras and Sandor Clegane [SPOILER]being dead - I highly doubt it, same for Brienne - she aint dead folks. My only worry after reading the book, is that Westeros is going to end up with an army of undead zombies from past characters.[/SPOILER]
On that subject, [SPOILER]the few snippets we have from the Wall and Jon Snow...did anyone else think that he was acting very kinglike in his manners? I mean, being able to switch between LC Snow and Jon Snow seemingly at the flick of a switch: ie - being both cruel and compassionate at the same time. Also dont forget that Jon Snow is the designated heir of the North since Robb made him so before the Red Wedding. Thus in Dragons we should see Snow v. Stannis; which will be great (salivates)[/SPOILER]
Dr_Octogon on 29/11/2005 at 12:56
Some gossip follows.
[SPOILER]* Apparently the Alchemist who killed the apprentice at the beginning has exactly the same description as the guy Arya rescued.
* I missed this, but apparently there was a big lumbering man covered with a cowl at the island monastery. This is the hound. Makes sense, since saying the hound was dead only referred to his former role also the discarding of the hound helm. Also how did they get the horse to come to the island without Sandor, considering it was so willful.
* I think, and hope, that Ayra is blind for good. She completely went against her training killing the singer. Plus, having her blind right at the end without any resolution must mean it's at least until the next time she has a chapter (i.e years to come). How can it make any sense that the next chapter reads "years later we meet Ayra as a young woman. Oh yes, that blind thing? It went away after a week. I was just trying to freak you out.
* This is probably old hat, but Jon and Danny are probably going to marry. Jon is likely not the bastard of Ned (seems unlikely from such an honourable man). But the son of his dead sister. The one who died at the Tower of Joy (childbirth anyone?) in the bed of blood (again, childbirth). The Kingsguard were defending the tower with their lives, why would they do that if they had killed her? Obviously Ned didn't kill her, so death in childbirth seems the most logical.
* About Dragonstone that is a thought! The first rule of the books, if you don't see it happen, it didn't happen and even if you did see it, it still might not have![/SPOILER]
