New Horizon on 5/4/2013 at 00:45

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Right or wrong? Were it only so easy. I don't think Eidos Montreal should ever have been charged with the task of taking on two established and exceptionally well designed series such as DE and Thief. These are the types of game that, unless you have an undying passion for them, you are essentially tying one hand behind your back creatively. Creative freedom is a somewhat dubious subject of debate when you're talking about a commercial game design company. You "create" what you're asked to create. Freedom is limited to your design documents, so you had better LOVE the game you're making. Deus Ex gave the devs a lot more leeway I think, but Thief is an exceptionally difficult game to make commercially.

When I think back on my discussions with some of the T3 dev's during and after my time moderating the Ion Storm forums, the one thing they all said without fail, when I told them about Dark Mod, was that "it is really hard to make a Thief game". At the time I took that at face value, but later came to understand it differently. Beyond our internal design debates on TDM, which I'm sure you remember Renz ;) , I don't recall it ever being really hard for TDM to capture the essence of Thief. Yes, it wasn't always as feature complete or polished, but the groundwork was always there and it had a heartbeat. We used Thief 1 and 2 as a guide, but didn't slavishly recreate it. We had access to design docs published by former Thief Devs and loosely based some of our systems on those. We had a very clear idea of how we thought Thief might have directly evolved from Thief 2 if it were to embrace the originals. We didn't make a 1:1 replica, but it's still close than T3 and especially closer than what we're seeing here with T4.

In today's commercial environment Thief IS a damned hard game to make and that's where I finally came to understand what the T3 devs were talking about. It's not that Thief is actually a hard game to replicate, it's simply a hard sell to publishers who want the next Assassin's Creed. For me that's a huge reason why EM's take on Thief is so disappointing. It's exactly what I expected it to be. I'm not surprised how it appears to be turning out at all. They took the path of least resistance, in a commercial sense, and the path of greatest resistance, in a fanbase sense. The final nail in the coffin was losing Russell.

Reports of what people have been shown so far point to a version of Thief that has had much of what made it unique stripped away in favor of cinematic action, a presentation of the world that is somewhat less eccentric than it once was, and supposedly more 'style' over substance. It's a shadow of what came before, but the general audience will eat it up. I was looking at some screen shots at work and a co-worker exclaimed "WHOAAAAAAA"...without even knowing what it was. That's what they're going for. It reminds me of Star Trek 2009, it's enjoyable but it's Trek lite. I enjoyed it overall, but it pulled me out of the movie several times when the script writers clearly assumed my knowledge of science...or even life...to be 'non-existent'.

Anyway, the absence of the lovely Stephen Russell is just one more dagger in the kidney's. EM will no doubt survive the fallout when many of us long time fans wither away, but it's a damn shame they did this.

HauntHunter on 5/4/2013 at 00:48

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Well, they are clueless - no supernatural elements, no monsters, etc. Sheesh... taffers.

Dia on 5/4/2013 at 01:03

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It must be nice to live in a world where everything is either black or white, with no shades of grey. Everyone here is expressing their own opinions; subjective opinions, even though each may contain certain facts already known to be true. But they're still subjective opinions. Subjective claims often express opinions, preferences, values, feelings, and judgments. And subjective claims cannot be proved true or false by any generally accepted criteria. ..... And by those standards I guess I'd better cut you some slack for expressing your own judgement. (Boy! Did that one ever backfire on me!) ;)

Regarding whether or not our opinions are 'as important as the creative direction the developers want to take their game'? We're talking about game developers here, kids; game devs that work for companies like EM, Bethesda, etc. It's not as though an independent developer sat down and created a game that he/she wanted to create all in the name of art; EM hired people to create a game that falls within certain parameters, guidelines, etc., including the graphics. And companies like EM don't create video games in the name of art, but in the name of profit. Now that's a fact. And it's also a fact that game developers will create whatever is popular to the majority of the masses because that's where the money is. So yeah, though it may not be our (as in TTLG 'our') opinions that matter more to the game devs, it's still the popular opinion that matters most for the sake of company profit, not for the sake of art. But once again, even the graphics, as artistic as they may be, are still created within certain parameters. It's not like the company gives the artist/developer free rein; they're expected to create what the popular opinion of the masses want but still within the parameters of the game being created. For the sake of profit.

Dia on 5/4/2013 at 01:29

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Does that mean no frakkin' zombies? If so, then that's the first good news I've heard in two days.



I really, really hate zombies. Almost worse than haunts.

Renzatic on 5/4/2013 at 01:49

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It is, but what have we seen so far that shows us EM thinks of the two series as nothing more than just another way to make a paycheck? We've seen the videos where the head level designer talks about being a huge fan back in the day, and the development team does seem to be rather proud of what they've accomplished so far.

...yes, I know. These videos are as much advertising for the game as much as they are informational for the fans. But assuming they're just running down a checklist to produce yet another smash hit for Square Enix, couldn't care less about LGS' legacy, and don't give half a damn about what they're making, that's a little too cynical for my tastes.

This might be the case. Maybe they don't care at all. Maybe most of the team are as big a fans of the series as we are. I don't know. Neither do you, or anyone else here. All I do know is if the game ends up being a soulless bag of absolute suck, I'll be here right alongside Vae and JTR wailing and gnashing my teeth, showing off my new "dum" custom user title in between my wails of despair.



We did have one big advantage back then, though. We were making a spin off. We weren't making a new Thief. That, and the fact we were a bunch of fans doing it for the love of the game, meant the community would be a little more forgiving of us.

...a little more. I know you, Spring, and everyone faced your fair share of static over TDM from some of the fans.



I think this is the biggest difference between TDM and New Thief. TDM set out to be one step up from Thief 1 & 2. But you all still stuck to the core elements of the first two games. The mission by mission structure. The tools. The mantling. The basic gameplay style. You all didn't copy Thief 100%, but TDM is an extension, a refining, of the first two Thiefs.

New Thief is an extension and then some. It's a commercial game in a series that hasn't seen an entry in a decade. It has to be Thief while not adhering to the old Thief so closely it limits what they can do. It has to bridge the gulf of 10 years of gameplay evolution that's taken place between it and T3. It has to at once live up to the legacy of old Thief, and give modern players what they expect out of a game.

If LGS were to all come back together and make Thief 4, the end result probably wouldn't look much different than New Thief. The industry has moved on since then. Games haven't become easier since 2000. They haven't become dumber. But expectations for how they play have changed considerably.

Like 3rd person while you're climbing a rope? It's all modern game ergonomics. It gives you a wider view of your surroundings while Garrett has his face smashed up against a wall. You don't have to like it (I've been saying this a lot recently), but try to understand why they're doing it. They're not doing it to dumb down the game. They're doing it because it gives you more awareness of your environment. Same for combat situations. More awareness of your environment. You see it a lot in games these days. Sometimes they'll sacrifice what we consider a little bit of immersion to achieve it, but that's why it's done.

...even if it does end up with some stupid "features" like DX:HR's 3rd person ladder climbing that served no purpose whatsoever other than OOH I'M CLIMBING A LADDER ALL CINEMATIC LIKE.

It's what people except these days. It doesn't necessarily make the game easier, but it does make the player less clumsy and better able to react. At least by their reasoning.

This is the tightrope EM has to walk. Though contrary to popular belief around here, you can make a Thief game with modern gameplay conventions. It just won't play like old Thief. Not exactly.

A classic '57 Chevy doesn't drive or even feel like a 2013 Tesla Roadster, but you can't really say one is better than the other.

Mix in the fact they want to make the City itself a larger, more explorable hub between missions, side missions you can take for extra cash, and...yeah. Bunches of stuff. There are tons of reasons why they'd tamper with the formula. They don't want to recreate Thief 1 & 2. They want to make a new Thief.



You and I must be seeing something else entirely. I'm seeing a game that does take a couple of cues from AC and Mirrors Edge (and being inspired by the better points of some games isn't a massive sin), but is still built around the Thief formula. There hasn't been a single thing I've seen that makes me think it's nothing more than a simple AC clone. Not. A. Thing. It doesn't look dumbed down. Doesn't look to be an action packed extravaganza bearing the Thief game. It DOES look a little more flashy. But...from what little I've seen anyway, it looks more like a Thief game at heart.

Different style aside, which I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here, but the jury's still out on whether their new take on the world actually works or not.

We'll see.

edit: If I rambled during this long ass post, keep in mind I had to walk away from it for half an hour to do something else. That doesn't allow for smooth forum posting flow.